08-05-2000 19:31									#1
	Turtledove "Great War Series" Scenario Idea Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Is anybody out there a fan of the Alt. History/Sci. Fi. novelist Harry Turtledove? I have read a number of his books, and have particularly enjoyed thus far the "Great War" series. Granted, there may be legal/copyright issues in dealing with the work of a living author, but I believe the events in the "Great War" series would make for a terrific scenario (or scenarios) involving the conflict between the USA and CSA during the Great War -- had the Confederacy successfully left the Union in 1862. Descriptions of all the books I'm going to describe are available over at Amazon.com and other sites. IMHO, the beauty of Turtldove's writing style is that he makes all these events plausible and believable.

I myself have no experience in scenario design, but I would seriously consider working on timelines, events, ideas, and graphics with anyone out there willing to look into this (Hey, did I ever say I have a life ). Anyone good at WWI era graphics could really help here.

"How Few Remain:" This book is predicated on a second war between the USA and the CSA, Britiain, and France in 1882. The confederates have purchased two Mexican provinces, Sonora and Chihuhua, in order to gain access to the Pacific ocean. Enraged, the Union declares war. I'm going to spill the beans on the ending here, but basically, the USA gets basically its arse kicked in: Canada (loses most of Maine, Cleveland bombarded by British ships across Lake Erie; Louisville (a bloody slugfest leading nowhere - Kentucky is in the CSA). In Utah, the USA grapples with rebellious Mormons, while in its new "Mexican" provinces, the CSA struggles to squelch an Apache Indian revolt.

IMHO, the events in "How Few Remain" make a good "prequel" scenario before the fun really begins.

"Great War: American Front:" It is 1914. The USA, allied with the central powers, has declared war on the CSA, the British Commonwealth, and France. All hell breaks loose as the USA strikes far and wide - perhaps overextended -in its efforts to gain revenge on the Confederacy and its allies. Fighting erupts again in Utah, the Mexican Deserts, Kentucky, Virginia, Sequoyah (CSA state now known as OKlahoma). A Confederate blitz northwards, though resulting in the occupation of Washington DC, is stopped at the Susquehanna River. In the north, US forces slog their way towards Toronto and Quebec City against Canadian and British forces. Most of Quebec has fallen under US occupation. Across the waters, a swift and decisive US strike has seized the Sandwich Islands (aka Hawaii) from the British. Confederate submarines prowl the Atlantic, which US, CSA, British, French, and occasionally German forces stalk.

"Great War: Walk in Hell" picks up where "American Front" left off. The USA cleaves Kentucky from the Confederacy (more beans spilt here), and squashes the Utah revolt in a pyrrhic (sp. ?) victory. A wide-scale communist rebellion of oppressed Negros threatens to bring down the entire confederacy. Across the seas, the US defeats the British and Japanese fleets in the South Pacific's "Battle of the Three Navies), while US destroyers smuggle arms to Catholic rebels in Ireland in order to "give the King of England a kick in the balls" (paraphrased from text) The blood slugfest on the Virginia-W. Virginia frontier continues to devour young lives. Armor appears on the Kentucky front. The Confederacy pursues an offense-through-defense strategy, while Canada teeters on the edge of defeat. CSA subs are still really nasty. Desperate for men, the CSA enrolls Negros into its ranks.

"Breakthroughts" (release Aug. '00) and other books. I'm waiting for the rest of this series to come out -- I suspect it'll be a four-part series, like the "WorldWar" books. I imagine that the US makes deep cuts into the CSA and that the Negro soldiers for the CSA make an impact. A few surprised, too. But, just b/c all the books haven't been released doesn't mean we can't start scenario ideas now. I would venture to guess there will even be a WWII series, as General Heinz Guderian, of "Red Front" infamy, is introduced as a character, along with other "real" historican figures.

As far as the specifics for the Great War on the American continent, I'm envisioning these civilizations and some unit specifics:

USA: Lots and lots of units ready for revenge on two fronts. President Teddy Roosevelt is is peeved and about to "go postal!" Maybe a wonder that allows Democracies to better support units afield. Big navy. Democratic government. Introduces gas and armour, gets better air units from German Cargo subs as scenario progresses. Some "all-as-road" movement units (Irving Morrell's commandoes). Riverboats needed along with ocean fleet.

CSA: Democracy. Cannot negotiate w/ USA. Defensive-minded: Hurts the USA more while withstanding attacks. Very tough defensive fortifications needed. Nasty subs. Marines needed as well. Negro units introduced in 1916. "Indian" units from "Sequoyah" would make nasty partisan types as well. Major factory and iron works in Birmingham, Alabama. Better artillery than USA (French design - (at least the French can do something right ) ). Riverboats needed along with high seas fleet.

British Commonwealth: Democracy. Units can appear as British and Canadian infantry and air types. I'm thinking the Canadians could maybe have improved mobility in wintertime, a la the Finns. Partisan units needed as well. Perhaps some "refugee" types.

All 3 above should have settlers/engineers to build railroads.

Utahians: Largely partisans, probably not a human player. Some tough defenses needed. Like "Kentuckians" in the "American Civil War" scenario in CiC.

Mexico: A Few units, not to be human player. There is a spot of fighting the USA in Baja California.

Germans: Ditto. Some naval units (not to be played by humans). Perhaps cargo submarines?

Japan: Ditto

Barbarians: Negro "Red" and Irish Catholic partisans, although maybe the USA could control the Irish and a few of the Negroes.

Map: Very large, stetching from Ireland to Hawaii (and beyond). Detail needed, stretching from Canada to Mexico. The Mississippi and Ohio rivers should be fully navigable, as should the Great Lakes.

Specific Events: Negro and Irish Rebellions (like Yugoslavs in "Red Front"), Arrival of better Air Units for USA, creation of armour?

I'm just cranking out some basic thoughts here. Anyhow, in the big picture, any feedback or ideas on this one?

	09-05-2000 01:59									#2
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I am a big Turtledove fan. I would love to see a scenario (or scenarios) based on the novels.

	09-05-2000 02:58									#3
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This sounds very interesting. I know i'd play it if it was done.
However, I do think it would have to be played over a world map and not just north america.
How would this be done?
Well, it's way to much to explain here...

	09-05-2000 04:35									#4
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There are any number of good US maps there, but they all omit Hawaii. Probably could make do with just the continent and use text messages to recreate some of the off-camera action. Then you could have US, CSA, Brits/Canada, and the rest appear as units controlled by the players. Use an extra Civ for the Congaree uprising that can take cities late in the game but will be destroyed with effort by the Rebs.

On a related note, have you read "The Two Georges?" Not as good a book but set in 1996 after the American Revolution was averted. That could be a better world-scale conflict in this vein.

	09-05-2000 19:35									#5
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Personally I would love to see one based on his fantasy world war books. I'm reading "Into the Darkness" right now and found it to be pretty enjoyable. There are also a lot of "tech advances" that the people in the books discover, making it ideally suited to a Civ2 scenario.

Lincoln as a communist is just too dang weird.

	09-05-2000 20:13									#6
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Michael-

Haven't read "The Two Georges," but I'll check it out.

Good thought about the map situation. As a reader, I am fascinated with the Hawaii and Ireland situations. However, they could be accounted for with the events file to give the map more room on the American continent.
Come to think of it, the fighting that Turtledove mentions outside of the Americas: The Spanish-Japanese War, the Irish Rebellion, the struggle in Europe with a diluted British and US presence, and the imbroglio in South America could all make good spinoffs.

I like your idea about just having the US and CSA the controlling the navies of their allies; maybe they could appear by special event or someting.

If you include the Congaree (and other areas in the deep south) as another civ created by special event, then the Mormons should be a civ as well.

That gives us:

1) USA
2) CSA
3) Commonwealth
4) Mormons
5) Congaree (special event)
6) Mexicans (weak, but CSA allies. Not to be human player).

I also think an objectives system would be the best way to play such a scenario. Some techs should be allowed to build gas, gas defenses (?), advanced artillery, armour, advanced planes, etc.

Moderator: I certainly agree that others of his books would make good scenarios, I just happen to prefer the Great War series above all of them.

As far as the Red Lincoln business, while it is a debatable question to which nobody knows the answer, I don't think plot turns like that would be especially pertinent to a scenario. I've kept in mind the "big picture" strategic events.

So, any experienced designers out there interested?

[This message has been edited by Sortub (edited May 09, 2000).]

	09-05-2000 20:44									#7
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As a Civil War historian, one of my favorite books was Turtledove's 'Guns of the South'. And even though I'm a fan of alternate history, I just couldn't get into 'How Few Remain' and thus, didn't read the rest of the series.

Perhaps the best book I read on alternate history was 'What If' that came out last fall. It includes many short essays from well read military historians and covers the sweep of history. I like these types of alternate histories where there could be plausible changes in events instead of some scifi nonsense. But then again, putting AK-47s in hands of the Confederates and the resulting aftermath was very good reading.

	09-05-2000 22:51									#8
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I have a friend who is a big fan of Turtledove books. He`s been working on a scenario based on Colonization: Second Contact, and may be willing to give you hand. If you want, I`ll ask him and see if he`s interested.

	09-05-2000 22:57									#9
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Cool. That would be good. I actually own Second Contact, but I just can't get into the Aliens series as much as the Great War one.

Thanks.

Other volunteers out there?