16-09-2003 11:10									#1
	Interfactional Debate 1. - Cycon vs. PEACE Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Interfactional Debate 1. - Cycon vs. PEACE

Topic: The CyCon's cyber-parrots are better weapons of war than the Peace's psi-nuclear parrots.

I proudly present the first interfactional debate. After days of organising, it has finally happened. As this is the first debate, there will be some leeway in time given to allow the team members to be organised.

May the debate begin!

	18-09-2003 14:48									#2
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Up Yours, Wire-Wing!!! Awwkkk!!!

	18-09-2003 19:00									#3
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Premise: Combat Parrots can carry an ordinance of up to one tonne.
Premise: PEACE parrots can carry less than a kilogram of ordinance during any extended flight.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots can carry more weaponry/equipment during their missions than PEACE parrots.

Premise: Combat Parrots have a range of two thousand kilometres.
Premise: PEACE parrots cannot fly, while carrying any significant ordinance, further than 50 kilometres.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots have a longer operational range than PEACE parrots.

Premise: Combat Parrots have cybernetically enhanced intellects, making them smarter than the average fullhuman.
Premise: The best debating point the PEACE parrot could come up with was “Up your Wire-Wing”.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are much more intelligent than PEACE parrots.

Premise: Combat Parrots maintain the same strength and physical fitness level regardless of their ordinance.
Premise: PEACE parrots, in order to increase their ordinance, must gorge themselves on mindworms, thus decreasing physical fitness and ability to perform strenuous tasks.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are more reliable when varying the strength of the ordinance.

Premise: Combat Parrots have been specifically designed to be aerodynamic, thus allowing for maximum economy of effort when flying.
Premise: PEACE parrots are equipped with non-aerodynamic baseball caps.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are more efficient flyers than PEACE parrots.

Premise: Combat Parrots are fully understandable.
Premise: PEACE parrots intersperse “Awwwk” during conversations, making communication difficult.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are better communicators than PEACE parrots.

Premise: Combat Parrots excrete no waste products.
Premise: PEACE parrots excrete the necessary biological waste all organisms do, requiring energy and effort to clean.
Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are less labour-intensive.

Conclusion of all concluding premises: Combat Parrots are better, in all ways discussed here, than PEACE parrots.

All premises are true, thus all concluding premises are true. The argument is sound.

	19-09-2003 10:34									#4
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EDIT: foolish icarus' PEACE argument, in favor of PEACE parrots over Cycon parrots

quote: Originally posted by Corellion Premise: Combat Parrots can carry an ordinance of up to one tonne. Premise: PEACE parrots can carry less than a kilogram of ordinance during any extended flight. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots can carry more weaponry/equipment during their missions than PEACE parrots.

The exact ordinance limit of the PEACE parrot is classified, but is accepted to be less than "one tonne."
The nature of PEACE parrots' munitions is such that they need not be equipped from the beginning of the flight. Ammo is readily available in the form of any meal, in contrast to Cycon parrots, which must be reloaded from supply points. This mobility afforded by independence from need of seperate supply outweighs the numerical advantage of Cycon bomb loads.

quote: Premise: Combat Parrots have a range of two thousand kilometres. Premise: PEACE parrots cannot fly, while carrying any significant ordinance, further than 50 kilometres. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots have a longer operational range than PEACE parrots.

False. As discussed above, PEACE parrots need not start out from base with their ordinance. Furthermore, their psi rating allows them to make use of any native life, such as Isles of the Deep or Sea Fungus, as basing points, and their specialy bred physiologies makes them at home just about anywhere on Planet, affording them near unlimited ranges.

quote: Premise: Combat Parrots have cybernetically enhanced intellects, making them smarter than the average fullhuman. Premise: The best debating point the PEACE parrot could come up with was “Up your Wire-Wing”. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are much more intelligent than PEACE parrots.

Not only was your concluding premise incorrect, as what a PEACE parrot chooses to say is not necessarily indicative of its intelligence, the difference in type of intellects gives the advantage to our parrots: PEACE parrots are smart enough to do what we tell them to or improvise when needed. Your parrots are ultimately limited to their preprogramming, and no matter how good that is, their will always be some new flaw manifesting itself, and because you expect them to be better than they can be, they will fail. We don't require our parrots to be super-smart, so they will be able to meet the objectives we set for them.

quote: Premise: Combat Parrots maintain the same strength and physical fitness level regardless of their ordinance. Premise: PEACE parrots, in order to increase their ordinance, must gorge themselves on mindworms, thus decreasing physical fitness and ability to perform strenuous tasks. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are more reliable when varying the strength of the ordinance.

So? For the reasons listed above (and that will be expanded below), this is irrelevant.

quote: Premise: Combat Parrots have been specifically designed to be aerodynamic, thus allowing for maximum economy of effort when flying. Premise: PEACE parrots are equipped with non-aerodynamic baseball caps. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are more efficient flyers than PEACE parrots.

Aha! But you do not know the secret powers of the cap!They can't be more efficient flyers if they can't see because the sun is in their eyes. Too bad they don't have baseball caps. Like PEACE parrots do...Which makes OUR BIRDS more efficient flyers!

quote: Premise: Combat Parrots are fully understandable. Premise: PEACE parrots intersperse “Awwwk” during conversations, making communication difficult. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are better communicators than PEACE parrots.

We pirates understand our parrots just fine. If no one else does, all the better.

quote: Premise: Combat Parrots excrete no waste products. Premise: PEACE parrots excrete the necessary biological waste all organisms do, requiring energy and effort to clean. Concluding Premise: Combat Parrots are less labour-intensive.

They're trained to crap over the ocean. Besides, if you consider that the waste products ARE part of the weapon, the more output the better.


Thus, in all these repects PEACE parrots are equal or superior to the so-called "combat parrots" of the Cycon. Even more importantly, Cycon parrots require more energy, labor, space, and materials to produce and maintain in order to give them their benefits that aren't really benefits. PEACE parrots are on all counts superior weapons of war. Stick with the gorillas.

	19-09-2003 18:23									#5
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus Not only was your concluding premise incorrect, as what a PEACE parrot chooses to say is not necessarily indicative of its intelligence, the difference in type of intellects gives the advantage to our parrots: PEACE parrots are smart enough to do what we tell them to or improvise when needed. Your parrots are ultimately limited to their preprogramming, and no matter how good that is, their will always be some new flaw manifesting itself, and because you expect them to be better than they can be, they will fail. We don't require our parrots to be super-smart, so they will be able to meet the objectives we set for them.

This is not true. Combat Parrots are no more limited by their programming than I am. You seem to be under the mistaken impression than Combat Parrots are robots, and are programmed by computers. This is not so. Combat Parrots are biological parrots that have had cybernetic components (including the light-weight full-body armour seen in the picture) integrated. Combat Parrots are fully capable of improvisation, and many even have chosen to take up careers and military strategists.

	19-09-2003 19:21									#6
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FlameFlash of the PEACE.

quote: Originally posted by Corellion This is not true. Combat Parrots are no more limited by their programming than I am. You seem to be under the mistaken impression than Combat Parrots are robots, and are programmed by computers. This is not so. Combat Parrots are biological parrots that have had cybernetic components (including the light-weight full-body armour seen in the picture) integrated. Combat Parrots are fully capable of improvisation, and many even have chosen to take up careers and military strategists.

And the fact you have parrots in the military is a bonus?

What picture?

We will contend also, that the parrotity rights of the parrots are being infringed on by requiring that they take on 'cybernetic components'.

Our parrots are our good buddies and we would never subject them to such experiements.

	20-09-2003 02:54									#7
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Please. For ease of following and judging the debate, identify who you are and which side you are arguing for at the beginning of your post.

It will be much easier for me, and I suspect the other judges, to file the salient salvos launched by each side if the response was as follows:

Begin as
[NAME for FACTION]: followed by the debate.




Some of the response so far have made me chuckle (which is a good thing). I am sure all those posting their arguments will wish to ensure that they make it Very Easy for the judges to know, and record, which side made these most convincing (and entertaining) arguments.


Mead (formerly an interested but now as judge, of course, a disinterested observer)

	20-09-2003 02:57									#8
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A little tip: you can judge from the civ icons on the left which faction a person belongs to.

	20-09-2003 03:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac A little tip: you can judge from the civ icons on the left which faction a person belongs to.

Yes.

I can also usually tell by which way they are arguing.

I would also help, since I because I am trying to take my new appointed responsibilities seriously I am downloading and printing the arguments. Having the headings at the beginning of each post stating for the record the maker of the argument and the side it is representing makes it much easier to follow and judge the debate.

Mead

P.S.
For those who might have guessed it already. I have been accused by some of my coworkers (misinformed I am sure) that I am a 'Type A' personality.

I just want to be able to do my job well.

	03-10-2003 06:40									#10
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The Cycon side presented a well thought out argument and challenged the Peace Parrot.


Peace recovered from their first effort at Debate: "Up yours, Wire Wing, Awwwwk" did seem a little weak as a form of argument.

The following salvo from Peace, more than adequately addressed the Cycon argument. Just what is the Secret of the Cap?

Is it to shield your parrots from 'friendly fire' byproducts of fellow Peace Parrots (made from all natural and alien worm feed) weapon?

Peace deftly explained that the intermittent Awwwwk was actually an attribute to secure communications, not an impediment to communications.


Seeing the absence of Deliberation on these threads, I declare, barring being overturned by a majority of my fellow (though absent) judges. PEACE to be the VICTOR.


Mead

	03-10-2003 06:57									#11
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quote: We pirates understand our parrots just fine. If no one else does, all the better.

Annoyance Encryption. Nice. Quantum encryption aint got nothin on them thar psi-nukyoolar parrots.

	03-10-2003 19:08									#12
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Annoyance Encryption. Nice. Quantum encryption aint got nothin on them thar psi-nukyoolar parrots.

Exactly.