17-09-2003 01:54									#31
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I knew polls like that were out there, but Zogby makes one pay for their polls (damn capitalists!).

Edwards is from SC: no kidding he would be ahead. I would be shocked to see Dean far aheadof Graham in florida, given Graham is popular there. Or Gephard in Missouri.

	17-09-2003 01:58									#32
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Edwards is from NC.

Damned Yankee.

	17-09-2003 01:58									#33
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I'm shocked that Dean is #2 in SC, not that Edwards is #1.

	17-09-2003 23:34									#34
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Bumped... so that maybe we can avoid yet another
Wesley Clark thread...

	18-09-2003 00:01									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Kerry and Dean both have much more passionate support, though the thing about Senators follows Kerry.

Some (a lot?) of Kerry's support will move to Clark, I suspect.

	18-09-2003 00:02									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And given that in the latests polls "unnamed democrat" comes within 3 points of Bush

So when will the some democrat get a clue and change his name to Unnamed?

	18-09-2003 00:32									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Over the weekend. See, for instance, question #998 and #999 at the bottom. Lieberman outpolls the closest rival by 8 points. Sharpton outpolls Edwards.

Any poll in which Al Sharpton beats ANYBODY, up to and including the Where's the Beef Lady, is cause for concern. Either the poll is wrong or we have conclusive prove that democracy doesn't work.
With that said, this is pretty ridiculous, but not much worse than the Ineffectual Ken-Doll vs. Superchimp match four years ago. I can vote now, but I don't have any idea who I would vote for other than "not Dubya," provided of course Sharpton doesn't get nominated by a miracle of God, which isn't likely because in my experience God likes to have more reliable spokespeople who actually represent His ideals as opposed to a pan-ethnic embittered rabblerousing shpiel. Gah.

	18-09-2003 02:14									#38
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Can someone tell Clark that if he is wants to criticize Bush on the economy, that he should at least use accurate numbers. Today, Clark said the budget went from a 5 trillion surplus to a 5 trillion deficit. Those numbers are not even close. The deficit is ~ 500 billion not 5 trillion. He is off by a factor of 10. He should get his numbers straight before opening his mouth.

	18-09-2003 02:15									#39
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He's probably talking about ten year projections.

	18-09-2003 02:46									#40
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"Some (a lot?) of Kerry's support will move to Clark, I suspect."

I supported Kerry originally, but then I switched to Dean.

	18-09-2003 02:59									#41
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It would be nice to read something of substance about Gen. Clark here. This thread is all about the Presidential horse race. I don't even know if I should cheer for Wes, beacause I don't know much about him.

Here's a radical idea: If we looked at things in greater depth, instead of soundbytes, maybe we could come up with sane policies.

	18-09-2003 03:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's probably talking about ten year projections.

Then he should have said ten year projection. He didn't.

	18-09-2003 03:09									#43
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic It would be nice to read something of substance about Gen. Clark here.

-he was fired from his job as NATO commander for disrespecting the chain of command.

-During the Kosovo war, he wanted NATO troops to attack an airport being guarded by Russian troops, an order that if obeyed might had started WW3.

Does that sound like someone you want as President? I sure don't.

	18-09-2003 03:16									#44
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic It would be nice to read something of substance about Gen. Clark here.

He's a blank slate given that his positions on a wide range of issues aren't widely known. Other than the fact that he was/is anti-Iraq war, what The Diplomat wrote is the best you are going to get.

	18-09-2003 04:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He's a blank slate given that his positions on a wide range of issues aren't widely known.

http://meetclark.com/faq/

	18-09-2003 05:07									#46
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The Dean bashing is comical. The guy is way to the right of Jean Chretien (by no means a lefty) for Chrissake.

If the war continues to go badly, or continues to be seen to go badly Dean will win: simply because he won't look like the pathetic flip-flops that the other candidates are. Lieberman is a joke - look at him, he's just not presidential material. Didn't people wake up and smell the coffee after McCain's insurgency campaign last time - people are getting fed up of the establishment candidates.

And what about Bush's own goal today - saying that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 - what's he playing at?

	18-09-2003 05:36									#47
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woot go Jon Edwards. But no made a thread about him announcing his run for president

	18-09-2003 05:46									#48
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Clarke will take any job given to him. VP, P, secstate, NSA, etc. He just wants to get back inot the game. REad his book.

	18-09-2003 06:04									#49
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quote: Jean Chretien (by no means a lefty)

Too many public funds going to support Quebec businesses like Bombardier?

	18-09-2003 06:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If the war continues to go badly, or continues to be seen to go badly Dean will win: simply because he won't look like the pathetic flip-flops that the other candidates are.

This isn't the perception in the U.S. Actually, it is Dean who is getting scorched on flip-flopping. He has made some rather glaring reversals in his policies, and is beginning to look like a pandering waffler. His short fuse won't help him either. American voters don't like candidates who get hot under the collar after a few tough questions. Clinton was actually able to downplay the accusations of his waffling through his charm and grace in the campaign. So far, Dean has shown little charm or grace.

Clark is going to become a formidable opponent. Despite diplomat's Drudge Report-garnered distortions, he wasn't fired from NATO (claiming so is pure speculation, since even the White House and Pentagon denied that).

And he didn't order an attack on Russian forces. He wanted to seize the Pristina airport before the Russians got there and stop the Russians from taking it--not attack the Russians. I don't think it would have been the wisest thing to do that, but I don't think Clark was being quite as reckless as people paint it.

	18-09-2003 06:24									#51
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Boris, I agree that there is some drudge report stuff going arouind. But there is some relevance to the issues raised. I( would put it halfway between your view and the Limbaugh view. Read Clarke's book. he got releived 2 years early at the NATO command.

	18-09-2003 06:25									#52
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You play with the big dogs and you get burned. He had a tendancy to get pretty deep into defeining policy rather than carrying it out. I had some inside experience of how the Kosovo thing eveloved over several years.

	18-09-2003 06:26									#53
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That is not to say that he was a poor technical commander. he was pretty good there. SMarter than average among flags for sure.

	18-09-2003 06:28									#54
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2 years? According the the BBC article about it, he left three months early, not 2 years:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/405764.stm

I have no doubt Clark may have had significant differences with the White House and Pentagon, but I don't think that's indicative of any problem with him as a presidential candidate.

Being a yes-man soldier may be great for the army, but it's bad for leadership. Colin Powell should have learned that lesson.

	18-09-2003 06:32									#55
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You cou7ld be right about the 3 months. Check his book. There was something funky about it. He writes about it. You can also talk to others to get more the detail. can't recall.

	18-09-2003 06:35									#56
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He was pretty new in 97 when I was there. And he left while Clinton was still there. It is traditionally 2 2 year terms. I think that he only served one. Maybe that is where the 3 months thing comes in. Sereiously, let's check his book to start.

	18-09-2003 07:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Edan http://meetclark.com/faq/

Beyond a bunch a BS generalities and pithy quotes (The gun control quote is a good example of this.), what did you expect me to find?

	18-09-2003 11:46									#58
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Read his book. It is a good place for a critic or an advocate to start.

	18-09-2003 11:47									#59
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Since you don't have the opportunity to get the EUCOM or Washington gossip on him. Or see him breeze through your exercise...

	18-09-2003 12:30									#60
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Here's an interesting article about him, although it doesn't really say much of real substance...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Sep16.html

The only impression that I have of him is negative. When he was stumping for his book, he gave an interview with NPR that sort of pissed me off. Don't remember why I got pissed though.