17-09-2003 06:27									#1
	Administrating Conquered Territories Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The time will soon come when we will be 'granted' a large amount of new land and cities to govern over. This thread is dedicated to what we should do and how we should procede to deal with these new lands.

So I'll start things off with a few questions:

• Do we want to immediately starve all cities down to size 1? On a similar topic, what do we plan on doing to help prevent culture flips?
  
  
• What do we plan on building in the cities? Walls? Workers? Or preparation for future use, e.g. Courthouse?
  
  
• Will we be using our Workers to begin improving the tiles in the new lands? By what date do we expect to do so?

	17-09-2003 06:54									#2
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Well, as for BoP, I would say Walls, I don't want to trust in CFC not coming and paying a visit.

As for the cities that are west of BoP, we could raze them and then tell CFC that GCA had done it....

The problem with starving down a city, is that it takes time, it just doesn't happen in a couple of turns. Especially if the city has an almost full Food box when we take it.

One thing is to worker farm them, i.e. start building a worker, and rush it after the first turn of it's build. This would require 28 gold max per city every other turn. This can be done at the same time that we are staving it down.

But no matter what, we will have to keep a few units in those cities for the first several turns after they are captured.

MoI E_T

	17-09-2003 07:08									#3
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Convert all pop to tax collectors. Specialists count as happy, IIRC. I have never had a city flip when doing that. Between that, and building workers, the pop drops like a rock.

	17-09-2003 08:22									#4
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Building workers is my usual approach.

And military road building only until the core & Forbidden Palace locations is reasonably improved.

	17-09-2003 08:44									#5
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Taxmen should be enough. It's not as if with the whole populace collecting each other's taxes anyone will produce the shields for workers.

	17-09-2003 09:33									#6
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Slaves are handy. They work slower, yes. However, they cost no gold.

Actually, slagging cities should not be discounted. Free slaves, and few of their cities are going to suit our own plans for city lay out.

	17-09-2003 09:37									#7
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Convert all pop to tax collectors. Specialists count as happy, IIRC. I have never had a city flip when doing that. Between that, and building workers, the pop drops like a rock.

Specialists actually count as content if you're talking about the score. In any case though as long as all of the citizens are used for specialists then they can't revolt...and a city can't starve when it's in revolt interestingly enough. Plus it does seem to make it more difficult for a culture flip to happen when the citizens are specialists. I don't know why.

	17-09-2003 11:15									#8
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Culture flips in PTW was made to be much more difficult. Besides, don't we a an overall cultural advantage over CGA?

	17-09-2003 12:30									#9
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quote: Specialists actually count as content if you're talking about the score. In any case though as long as all of the citizens are used for specialists then they can't revolt...and a city can't starve when it's in revolt interestingly enough. Plus it does seem to make it more difficult for a culture flip to happen when the citizens are specialists. I don't know why.

Because an unhappy foreigner is more likely to flip. A content foreigner, less so. A happy foreigner, or a specialist, is least likely to flip out. That is why starving down as specialists practically eliminates flips.

quote: Culture flips in PTW was made to be much more difficult. Besides, don't we a an overall cultural advantage over CGA?

Uhmmmm, no. Reverse that. GCA has had temples since near the beginning. Two of them, in fact. They scoff at our culture. Temples have not been a priority as we have dug out of the jungle.

	17-09-2003 20:22									#10
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Yeah, our culture is laughable compared to theirs.

	17-09-2003 20:45									#11
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hehe, we have no stinking culture. Though, that should change pretty soon. I would like to see some temples built in our core cities fairly soon. We don't know how long this war will last exactly. I don't expect it to last longer than 20 turns though.

	18-09-2003 02:25									#12
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The thing is - we can do the following things at the same time:

1. Have specialists (taxmen);
   
2. Build-and-rush workers;
   
3. Starve the city.
   

	18-09-2003 04:42									#13
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Or, if we don't quite like the location, we can rush a settler from it, when it gets down to size 2, and move it.... When we rebuild, it won;t have the original culture that the city had AND it will be size 1...

E_T

	18-09-2003 07:19									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

When you capture a city, the food box is always empty because the city drops 1 pop point when your units roll in.

The box beings to fill once a single resister stops resisting and turns into WF. You all need to start warmongering more often

	18-09-2003 20:51									#15
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree hehe, we have no stinking culture. Though, that should change pretty soon. I would like to see some temples built in our core cities fairly soon. We don't know how long this war will last exactly. I don't expect it to last longer than 20 turns though.

Our only chance to win this game is eiter killing the others or sending the spaceship. It's too late now building culture and score, we are too far behind - another dissadvantage to building cities as close as we've done.

	18-09-2003 21:05									#16
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I don't think it's necessarily a disadvantage. A decision was made early on to focus on a few certain ways of winning to the exclusion of others. That way we concentrate on certain things and not try to "do everything" similar to an Ultimate Power game from the strategy forum. If we tried to do everything (i.e. build culture in the early game with a no-cheap-culture civ) we'd be farther behind than we are now and GCA would probably be threatening to annihilate us, not vice versa.

	18-09-2003 22:19									#17
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart Our only chance to win this game is eiter killing the others or sending the spaceship. It's too late now building culture and score, we are too far behind - another dissadvantage to building cities as close as we've done.

city spacing doesn't have anything to do with the lack of culture, it has everything to do with having to clear miles of jungle and defend ourselves from barbs and 3 civs. Closer city spacing actually means more cities and thus more culture opportunities. You can't be good at everything, and I would rather lose via culture than militarily.

	18-09-2003 23:23									#18
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I think our tight spacing was a blessing compared to how absolutely shitty our start was. If we had to sacrifice culture for other things (like a killer military) I think it was a well taken tradeoff.

Remember, with bad starts you can't be good at everything. Something has to give. Considering we had Immortals as neighbors, and that we get no cheap cultural improvements like the religious or scientific civs get, going for culture would have been nothing short of suicide.

	18-09-2003 23:51									#19
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I wouldn't rule us winning a spaceship victory out at all, by the way. One day in the future, Friedrich will go into further detail on the subject of the "ICBM Gambit" which can allow you to win the space race with shocking unexpected speed. (It's really not all that exciting, but it DOES work.)

	19-09-2003 00:37									#20
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I look forward to that read Mr. FP! I doubt the other teams are trying for a culture win. To do so means you have to almost neglect your military. By the looks of things over there the teams that may have done that are either eliminated or on the verge of it.

	19-09-2003 18:54									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Catcher, IDG and Random Outpost will be at 1 or 2 pop when we capture them (if they don't abandon them), so starvation there should work within a turn. From what we know of their map now it seems that only Algalord, Catchopolis and BoP MAY have more than a couple of pop points when we take them. A worker would take 10 shields to build. Let us say we capture one or two of these latter cities with 4 or 5 pop. It will take 4-5 turns to starve these down using just taxmen - one turn for resistance to cease, and then one turn per pop point starvation. For it to be of any benefit to build a worker to speed the process, this means we need at least 3 shields per turn to complete a worker in time. As I calculate it, I believe Algalord has 68% corruption and Server Fire has 75% corruption assuming they are still connected.. This means they need to produce at least 10 shields before corruption to have 3spt. Clearly they would not build the workers on their own.

The workers would need to be rushed at a cost of 4 gold per shield. If we did this two turns after capture (one for city to drop out of resistance and one for a shield to accumulate, decreasing the cost from 80 gold for no shields accumulated), then we would need to spend 36 gold for a worker, for a city size 4 at best at that time. There would be no point in doing this again, as when we build the worker the city drops to 2 pop. One turn for a shield in the box later it is at pop 1 already. So we would be spending 36 gold to get one sickly slave CFC worker (half the working speed of our good strong Apolytonian workers eg MWIA or panag ), and speeding the depopulation of a size 5 city from 5 turns to 4. Worth it? Not really.

	19-09-2003 20:48									#22
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"ICBM Gambit"

Either:

1. Nuke everyone.
2. Build the Spaceship.

Or:

1. Pretend you're going to nuke everyone.
2. Build the Spaceship in secret using ICBMs as prebuilds.


Dominae

	19-09-2003 22:25									#23
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I am always inclined to support the decision which involves more enemy population dying.

	19-09-2003 23:15									#24
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I miss the good ol' moral discussions of the SPDG: "feast or famine"- is starvation of enemy population moral?

Circumstances (as well as the nature of this game) dictates brutal efficiency, so yes, it seems we should starve, and rush a slave only in cases it is actually worth it, and not as a general policy, or so it seems...

	20-09-2003 21:21									#25
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Dominae- the second one. If you set it up right, you can actually get the entire thing done in 2 turns, with that much warning and no real way to make a reprisal.