17-09-2003 23:16									#31
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1. Graves are not weapons of mass destruction
2. Never ask the Russians what they think of Americans. Never ask the Kurds.....

	17-09-2003 23:21									#32
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quote: and evidence that Iraq was misleading the inspectors, from what i have heard.

You'll have to be more specific. There was a lot of thought that the Iraqis were misleading inspectors, yes, but post-war investigation has shown that many of their claims about WMD have proven correct (e.g., the "winnebagos of death" ).

Of course, you may know of some specific example that I don't.

	17-09-2003 23:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar 1. Graves are not weapons of mass destruction 2. Never ask the Russians what they think of Americans. Never ask the Kurds.....

do you think we could at least ask the Kurds about the legitimacy of what goes on in Iraq? Rather than say, the French?

	17-09-2003 23:22									#34
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quote: then why is blixie even proposing the "beware of dog theory"?

He is not 'proposing' it.

'Blix, who spent three years searching for Iraqi chemical, biological and ballistic missiles as head of the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, said Iraq might have tried to fool the United States into believing it had weapons of mass destruction over the years in order to deter attack.

'Over the years' suggests that it was a ploy used by the Iraqis during the nineties. I doubt Blix is correct, however, since there is a total lack of a convincing 'beware of the dog sign' on the part of Iraq; their behaviour can be explained in other, more likely ways. Even if Blix is correct, the Iraqis certainly abandoned this ploy during the run-up to war (they could hardly have missed the troop build-up), only to meet a classic series of ever-escalating demands, at least one of which was virtually impossible to fulfil.

	17-09-2003 23:23									#35
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quote: Originally posted by rev You'll have to be more specific. There was a lot of thought that the Iraqis were misleading inspectors, yes, but post-war investigation has shown that many of their claims about WMD have proven correct (e.g., the "winnebagos of death" ). .

what postwar investigation has proven them correct on that. My understanding is that some experts have said they cant rule out that there might be a legitimate use for the alleged mobile weapons labs.

	17-09-2003 23:25									#36
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quote: I doubt Blix is correct, however, since there is a total lack of a convincing 'beware of the dog sign' on the part of Iraq; their behaviour can be explained in other, more likely ways.

For example -- Chalabi was behind many of those Iraqi ex-patriots who claimed to have in-depth knowledge of Iraqi WMD programs -- knowledge that turned out to be completely bunk. It's possible these are the people who exaggerated the most in order to get done what they wanted done: invasion of Iraq and the fall of Baghdad (which Bush Sr. promised but never delivered on).

	17-09-2003 23:26									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman He is not 'proposing' it. 'Blix, who spent three years searching for Iraqi chemical, biological and ballistic missiles as head of the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, said Iraq might have tried to fool the United States into believing it had weapons of mass destruction over the years in order to deter attack. 'Over the years' suggests that it was a ploy used by the Iraqis during the nineties. I doubt Blix is correct, however, since there is a total lack of a convincing 'beware of the dog sign' on the part of Iraq; their behaviour can be explained in other, more likely ways. Even if Blix is correct, the Iraqis certainly abandoned this ploy during the run-up to war (they could hardly have missed the troop build-up), only to meet a classic series of ever-escalating demands, at least one of which was virtually impossible to fulfil.

tehy did not give it up, as they did not use their opportunity under 1441 to give a detailed documentation of their destruction of WMD. As for the troops, they obviously thought any second resolution would be vetoed (they were right about that) and that in the absence of a resolution, that the US would not act (they were wrong, but so were alot of other people)

	17-09-2003 23:27									#38
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quote: Originally posted by rev For example -- Chalabi was behind many of those Iraqi ex-patriots

how did they become ex-patriots?

	17-09-2003 23:30									#39
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quote: what postwar investigation has proven them correct on that. My understanding is that some experts have said they cant rule out that there might be a legitimate use for the alleged mobile weapons labs.

Iraqi mobile labs nothing to do with germ warfare, report finds (Observer, Guardian)

	17-09-2003 23:31									#40
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Chalabi's family fled Iraq in 1958 when he was 13, following an overthrow of the monarchy.

	17-09-2003 23:32									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman 'Over the years' suggests that it was a ploy used by the Iraqis during the nineties. I doubt Blix is correct, however, since there is a total lack of a convincing 'beware of the dog sign' on the part of Iraq;

1. I suggest we allow Blix to clarify the timing he meant, rather than speculate.
2. As for convincing "beware of dog sign" i presume he is referencing something he really does know about, or why mention it at all? Presumably actual interference in inspections, etc.

	17-09-2003 23:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by rev Iraqi mobile labs nothing to do with germ warfare, report finds (Observer, Guardian)

"Instead, a British scientist and biological weapons expert, who has examined the trailers in Iraq, told The Observer last week: "

An unnamed scientist talking to the Observer.

	17-09-2003 23:35									#43
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quote: Originally posted by rev Chalabi's family fled Iraq in 1958 when he was 13, following an overthrow of the monarchy.

how did they cease to be patriots? or did you mean expatriates?

	17-09-2003 23:35									#44
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Blix doesn't know sqawt.

He has to say something that sounds like he knows what he's talking about every now and then to keep the pay check coming in, and since Sadman lost his country and can't afford to pay Blix anymore he really needs the money...

	17-09-2003 23:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Japher quote: Bottom line is that the US and the UK lied to the whole world... read this again, very closely: quote: 'Blix, who spent three years searching for Iraqi chemical, biological and ballistic missiles as head of the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, said Iraq might have tried to fool the United States into believing it had weapons of mass destruction over the years in order to deter attack. If your are going to believe everything Blix says then at least believe everything he says...

Uhuh... The US claimed it knew Iraq had WMD's and that they had PROOF of it...

	17-09-2003 23:55									#46
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All the proof I see presented has either been ignored or was questionable before the war began, and was something that was asked to have debunked and never was due to lack of due diligence by both the UN and Iraq.

Threats are not taken lightly by the US.

	18-09-2003 00:06									#47
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quote: Threats are not taken lightly by the US.

And yet this is not a causus Belli. The admin. did state it had proof that Iraq HAD weapons, which is why a war in March was called for. The admin. DID NOT argue to the public that simply the possibility was enough for war, since they know that would have failed to garner enough public and congressional support to wage war.

At best, one can claim mebers of the admin. did believe Iraq had WMD's and were wilfuly blind to evidence to the contrary. That is not a encouraging thing, but it's the best the amdin. can do.

Pro-war people: drop the WMD stuff and stick to the liberation sotryline..that one is far more defensible.

	18-09-2003 00:25									#48
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quote: tehy did not give it up, as they did not use their opportunity under 1441 to give a detailed documentation of their destruction of WMD. As for the troops, they obviously thought any second resolution would be vetoed (they were right about that) and that in the absence of a resolution, that the US would not act (they were wrong, but so were alot of other people)

The Iraqis submitted a 12,000 page declaration. It was ntipicked to death, and was criticised on the grounds that it contained nothing new, as if it would help Iraq to have included details on new weapons!

To think that Saddam would risk his regime on the USA respecting the United Nations is laughable. Anybody with a gram of intelligence could see that they were going to invade regardless of the UN.

quote: 1. I suggest we allow Blix to clarify the timing he meant, rather than speculate.

'Over the years' certainly indicates a larger time period than the immediate run-up to war.

quote: 2. As for convincing "beware of dog sign" i presume he is referencing something he really does know about, or why mention it at all? Presumably actual interference in inspections, etc.

The 'interference' can be explained be a plethora of more likely reasons, for example, official petty-mindedness by Iraqi officials, genuine fears that the inspectors were gathering intelligence, communications failures and fears for the safety of Saddam.

This fanciful suggestion that Iraq was pretending to have WMDs to stop America invading, whilst all the time America was desperately searching for evidence, and found nothing requires that:

1. The Iraqis had a death wish, since it was blindingly obvious that America was just itching to invade.
2. That the Iraqis played an absurdly subtle game with the inspectors.
3. That despite wanting to appear to have WMDs, the Iraqis somehow managed to fail to fabricate enough evidence to convince the UN, but enough to convince the US and its client states.

	18-09-2003 02:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The Iraqis submitted a 12,000 page declaration

Which left the fate of numerous weapons completely unaccounted for.

	18-09-2003 02:59									#50
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Such as that big, honkin nuclear weapon he had.

	18-09-2003 03:01									#51
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My understanding is that some experts have said they cant rule out that there might be a legitimate use for the alleged mobile weapons labs.

My understanding is that they were mobile vaccination labs.

	18-09-2003 03:01									#52
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I own an amount of homemade mace, and have the ability and capacity to make more... yet I don't have the police knocking on my door saying that I should be taken out!

	18-09-2003 03:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That dog don't hunt. They lied. So what? Do you want to have us apologize and return the country to Hussein?

Wellllll..... That would smoke him out of hiding wouldn't it?

	18-09-2003 03:05									#54
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On the cards, it says "Saddam Hussayn Al Tikriti"

What gives?

	18-09-2003 03:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Wellllll..... That would smoke him out of hiding wouldn't it?

I wonder if that would really work.

Elijah, Many middle-eastern people use the name of the place they were born in thier full names, although they rarely use it. It is a tribal throwback.

	18-09-2003 04:21									#56
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Judging by the caliber of his leadership it just might.

	18-09-2003 05:03									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Which left the fate of numerous weapons completely unaccounted for.

Yes, a single aluminium tube could kill a city the size of London.

	18-09-2003 08:59									#58
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Did I hear right on the news this morning. George Bush admitted that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, yet 70% of Americans still think he was a co-mastermind?

	18-09-2003 12:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Threats are not taken lightly by the US.

When did Saddam threaten the US?