18-09-2003 21:45									#1
	A moral dilemma Increase Your PM Length

Okay, so I've been drunking and its late so bear with me, but I've got this moral and would be interested in people's opinions.

I'm reading news stories and I come across one that says that possibly eight American soldiers were killed in an ambush. My first reaction is ahh sh!t. No matter what I think about the US government, reading about American soldiers being killed is, me being a Canadian, like hearing that a neighbour's son has died. It sucks.

But on a big political scale, if the US has an easy ride in Iraq, that will only encourage American politicians to invade other countries which will cause more death and destruction. So maybe it is better than more American soldiers die now to prevent future wars that will cause more deaths. But wanting that sounds sick because it means that more "neighbour's" sons dying which I don't want.

So what's the solution to this dilemma, or am I just so drunk that I create a false dilemma?

	18-09-2003 21:47									#2
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try drunking less

	18-09-2003 21:47									#3
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It's bad news.

"But on a big political scale, if the US has an easy ride in Iraq, that will only encourage American politicians to invade other countries which will cause ... "

...more countries to become free and democratic.

So it's all bad.

	18-09-2003 21:48									#4
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No worries, they volounteered to die.

	18-09-2003 22:06									#5
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No dilemma at all. There is a state of war, and people are dying, civilians and military. Those casualties are a direct consequence of the initial decision to go to war. The dilemma is for those who have to decide what to do next.

	18-09-2003 22:10									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT No dilemma at all. There is a state of war, and people are dying, civilians and military. Those casualties are a direct consequence of the initial decision to go to war. The dilemma is for those who have to decide what to do next.

I don't know, maybe you're right, but it seems like a bit of cop out. The US is a democratic system so the people who decide are the people, and the people are part of a world community and can be influenced. you know what I mean.

	18-09-2003 22:14									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai No matter what I think about the US government, reading about American soldiers being killed is, me being a Canadian, like hearing that a neighbour's son has died. It sucks.

The way I see it is, a US soldier's life does not value more than an Iraqi soldier's life.

It is tragic. It is also a strong condemnation of Dubya's senseless decision to go to war.

	18-09-2003 22:15									#8
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UR: What are you doing up so late?

	18-09-2003 22:16									#9
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Tingy: It's all your fault. Those people died because of that Matzoh ball you didn't eat last year.

	18-09-2003 22:16									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I don't know, maybe you're right, but it seems like a bit of cop out. The US is a democratic system so the people who decide are the people, and the people are part of a world community and can be influenced. you know what I mean.

The democracy gives you the power to demote the guy who do not lead as you wish, but it will not make possible to undo what he did. Frustrating, but again no better system.

	19-09-2003 00:36									#11
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With regard to Iraq, Bush led the people as they wished, however. In matters of war and peace, it is much harder to lead the American people where they don't wish to go than you might think.

	19-09-2003 00:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DanS With regard to Iraq, Bush led the people as they wished, however.

How many people where asking to invade iraq before he mentioned it?

	19-09-2003 00:46									#13
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The attack Iraq poll number was consistently about 62% from the time of the cease fire ending the first Gulf War to the opening shots of the second Gulf War. It went up to 72% and down to 58% very briefly.

	19-09-2003 00:53									#14
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quote: But on a big political scale, if the US has an easy ride in Iraq, that will only encourage American politicians to invade other countries which will cause more death and destruction. So maybe it is better than more American soldiers die now to prevent future wars that will cause more deaths. But wanting that sounds sick because it means that more "neighbour's" sons dying which I don't want.

Did it occur to you that if the U.S. has an "easy ride" in Iraq, that just might mean a good result for Iraqis? I doubt it, since IIRC, you're one of those who bought the "war for oil" line.

The thing that might trip up future military adventures is probably the dollar figure, to be honest. Lots of people who were pro-war are appalled at the $87 billion figure. Sure, I think they're morons for thinking this would be cheap, but what can I say? Add in the death toll we've already suffered (or maybe not the overall number, but rather the tempo - 1-2 guys seem to get killed every day, on average), and it's enough to give people pause.

-Arrian

	19-09-2003 00:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The attack Iraq poll number was consistently about 62% from the time of the cease fire ending the first Gulf War to the opening shots of the second Gulf War. It went up to 72% and down to 58% very briefly.

Half the population has been wanting another war with Iraq since the last? I thought most americans where just sheep, but I guess they're all wolves.

	19-09-2003 00:57									#16
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There was a general concensus on "unfinished business." Many people thought the decision to stop where Bush I stopped was a mistake, in retrospect, and that Saddam would never really cooperate with the UN (which would never really make an effort to force him to) and therefore we should just take him out.

Please note that the above is a general outline, and does not reflect my views (some of it, but certainly not all), so don't bother arguing with me over it.

-Arrian

	19-09-2003 01:07									#17
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Regarding your moral dilema...i can sympathise (but then I too am less than sober). Personally I would always say I valued human life above all else...but in situations like this it cannot be that black and white. I loath the idea of American soldiers dying and cannot even begin to consider the possibility that more should have been killed because then it would make the US less confident in tramping through every country they come across.

But then, if they continue to do this, it inevitably means loss of life on a far larger scale, as it will mean a large death toll in whatever country they happen to invade...so I do not really know. A pointless post..I have confused myself

	19-09-2003 01:09									#18
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quote: Half the population has been wanting another war with Iraq since the last?

Yes, sir. Much more than half. One of the most consistent poll numbers that I've seen.

	19-09-2003 01:15									#19
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Human life above all... I'm a love-motived as well as rationality motivated individual. I'm equally sad when anyone, US or Iraqi dies.

War sucks. Blame the donkeys leading the lions.

	19-09-2003 01:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yes, sir. Much more than half. One of the most consistent poll numbers that I've seen.

62% isn't 'much more' than half, especially when considering the margin of error present in all polls.

	19-09-2003 01:26									#21
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quote: 62% isn't 'much more' than half,

In an election, it'd be a landslide

	19-09-2003 02:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Human life above all... I'm a love-motived as well as rationality motivated individual. I'm equally sad when anyone, US or Iraqi dies. War sucks. Blame the donkeys leading the lions.

I agree

Make love not war

*Giovanni Wine imagine a scene of Saddam and Bush making love

Well... ehrrr.. maybe a shake of hands will be enough

Saluti

	19-09-2003 02:08									#23
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human life above all why the us bombed

	19-09-2003 07:50									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai UR: What are you doing up so late?

I was going to ask you the same question.

	19-09-2003 07:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Human life above all... I'm a love-motived as well as rationality motivated individual. I'm equally sad when anyone, US or Iraqi dies. War sucks. Blame the donkeys leading the lions.

Copycat post

	19-09-2003 07:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In matters of war and peace, it is much harder to lead the American people where they don't wish to go than you might think.

That's such crap.

	19-09-2003 10:24									#27
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Hope for a speedy end to the war and stabilisation in Iraq and worry about the future later.