18-09-2003 23:58									#1
	Exploitation of the Dumb Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

So we have this dumb teenager coming over to the supermarket where I work regulary. He asked a couple of times if he can get some cents free, when he again had not enough money on him. Its not that he trys to cheat us. He just cant count or read. He has some mental illness. You couldnt hold a normal conversation with him. Dont know the right english word so I describe it as dumb...
Of course we dont give a single cent for free. My boss someday thought it would be a good idea to give him a small job. He has to go out on the parking lot to clean the garbage (takes him about 1h) in return he gets a pack of chips or a coke (about 50cents worth).
He agreed to it... but oh well he isnt really an economic mastermind. I mean he cant even count money! (he always gives me all the money he has on him, when he buys something, and looks at every cent he gets back as a surprise packet, asking what he could buy from that, and runs of to get it.)

So dunno. What do you think where this goes on the moral scale? Is it one nice example of the usuall and all so healthy common capitalist practice? Or is it evil exploitation?
My boss thinks it is pretty funny....

	19-09-2003 00:02									#2
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That boss is one mean fvcker.

	19-09-2003 00:04									#3
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Nothing wrong with giving him the occasional task here or there, but your boss really should pay him more than a bag of chips and soda. I also suspect that the authorities (both the government and your bosses boss) would frown on such a thing - I know here in the US they would: they don't call it a "minimum wage" for nothing.

	19-09-2003 00:08									#4
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Exploitation... no... The fact that you and your boss probably find it funny... sick and disgusting.

The sad part is... while your boss thinks it a joke, it probably means a lot to the poor kid. He has a chance to do what he probably thinks is a real job... and get paid for it. Even though it amounts to only 50 cents an hour... It probably means a great deal to the kid. Kids like that don't get many chances to do "something"... and he's probably very proud that he has a "job".

So cut the kid some slack...

	19-09-2003 00:09									#5
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Precisely, Ming.

	19-09-2003 00:10									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Exploitation... no... The fact that you and your boss probably find it funny... sick and disgusting. The sad part is... while your boss thinks it a joke, it probably means a lot to the poor kid. He has a chance to do what he probably thinks is a real job... and get paid for it. Even though it amounts to only 50 cents an hour... It probably means a great deal to the kid. Kids like that don't get many chances to do "something"... and he's probably very proud that he has a "job". So cut the kid some slack...

I don't find this funny in the least -- I think it is exploitation.

	19-09-2003 00:13									#7
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MrFun, you're missing the point. From our perspective the boss is being exploitive, but from the kids perspective he's performing a valuable service and doing something worthwhile.

It really depends upon the attitudes and the motives of the people who give the job, and not the job itself.

	19-09-2003 00:14									#8
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I've worked with "disadvantaged" young adults. It's very important to them to be able to "do something". It takes away a lot of their frustrations... and gives them a feeling of self worth. Something that is VERY IMPORTANT to them. Granted, as JT says... some might view it as unfair, and that he should be paid a minimum wage... but we all know if that was the case, the kid wouldn't have a "job"... so yeah, unfair... but in my opinion... a GREAT THING for the kid. I would hope nobody would step in to "protect his rights" and in reality, screw him.

Let the kid work for an hour a day for a drink and chips.
Make him feel useful... Make his day.

	19-09-2003 00:20									#9
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Correct Ming.

	19-09-2003 00:21									#10
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I though about it as evil exploitation, too. But the kid is indeed happy that he can do something. Exactly like Ming describes. So when I talked about it with the boss, I asked him why he wouldnt give him a bit more of a wage... (being fair and all)
He basicly replied, the kid gets what the work is worth to my boss. Sure he would have to send some of our workers out to do it, but you can always find a timeframe where someone is not occupied at the moment (depending on costumer-rushs). A normal worker also does it in only 15mins. When I think the kid deserves more money Im always free to give him some of my own money... (grins and laughs about my concern for the poor kid)

hmmm....

	19-09-2003 00:22									#11
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As much as it pains me to say this...I agree, Ming I reckon the boss probably is exploiting this kid...but maybe it is just the fact that he treats it as a joke that makes me feel this way towards him.

	19-09-2003 00:24									#12
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Why would he be unable to do that at minimum wage? If it only takes him an hour to clean the parking lot, it's not like he's going to be making a 5 digit income.

It is exploitation, that the kid doesn't think so is the entire point, otherwise it wouldn't be exploitation.

	19-09-2003 00:26									#13
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Yay, we just earned our 50 cents for the day

Attachment: both1.jpg
This has been downloaded 113 time(s).

	19-09-2003 00:29									#14
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Hmmm...i'm inclined to agree, Osweld (this really is not like me. I cant stand not arguing with you all!). The whole exploitation issue is a difficult one. Yes, the fact the boy does not see anything unfair in his treatment is the reason the boss is able to exploit him, and he should be entitled to the same minimum wage as everybody else. However, if this is a job which would normally be done by another member of staff for no extra money (and in 1/4 of the time) then perhaps this man is in fact doing him a favour by employing him at all.

	19-09-2003 00:31									#15
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I agree with Ming. There's nothing wrong with letting the kid pick up trash for an hour and giving him some chips and a coke that he couldn't have otherwise afforded.

	19-09-2003 00:33									#16
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I wouldn't even say you'd have to give him minimal wage. Giving him some food is probably preferable to him, anyways. But 50 cents worth? that's being an *******. You could atleast give him a full-sized bag of chips or a 6-pack of soda isntead of the smallest units.

	19-09-2003 00:34									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Why would he be unable to do that at minimum wage? If it only takes him an hour to clean the parking lot, it's not like he's going to be making a 5 digit income. It is exploitation, that the kid doesn't think so is the entire point, otherwise it wouldn't be exploitation.

It doesn't sound like the manager would give the kid minimum wage for a hour. And frankly, while I think the guy is a total scum bag, he is correct in knowing that a normal kid could do the same job in 15 minutes. So if he was forced to give the kid minimum wage for an hour, for a job he thought should take 15 minutes... the kid wouldn't get the job.

And again... while many will think it's exploitation... and shouldn't be allowed... I just think of how much that "job" probably means to that kid. I also can think what it would do to the kid if some liberal lawyer type stepped in and the kid was no longer allowed to do it.

Yeah... civilization would be saved... and one kid would be screwed, by having something very important taken away from him for "his own good"...

	19-09-2003 00:34									#18
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Do they put him on a leash?

	19-09-2003 00:36									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I've worked with "disadvantaged" young adults. It's very important to them to be able to "do something". It takes away a lot of their frustrations... and gives them a feeling of self worth. Something that is VERY IMPORTANT to them. Granted, as JT says... some might view it as unfair, and that he should be paid a minimum wage... but we all know if that was the case, the kid wouldn't have a "job"... so yeah, unfair... but in my opinion... a GREAT THING for the kid. I would hope nobody would step in to "protect his rights" and in reality, screw him. Let the kid work for an hour a day for a drink and chips. Make him feel useful... Make his day.

I haven't missed the point -- yes, this mentally disabled kid is going to gain a more positive self-esteem, but I still cannot agree with the amount this kid is being paid.

	19-09-2003 00:39									#20
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It wouldn't kill the "boss" to pay the "dumb" kid minimum wage to clean the parking lot, what?, once or twice a week at minimum. It'd cost the business, in the United States at least, roughly $12 a week (so long as the kid isn't hired "officially") and the "dumb" kid could have a bit more money along with a sense of self-worth.

Just my two cents.

Gatekeeper

	19-09-2003 00:42									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ming It doesn't sound like the manager would give the kid minimum wage for a hour. And frankly, while I think the guy is a total scum bag, he is correct in knowing that a normal kid could do the same job in 15 minutes. So if he was forced to give the kid minimum wage for an hour, for a job he thought should take 15 minutes... the kid wouldn't get the job.

Actually most kids would realize they're geting paid by the hour and take their time. They'd probably take three hours.

	19-09-2003 00:42									#22
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And where is the boss going to get the money? Take cash out of the register?

	19-09-2003 00:43									#23
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Where did people get the "50 cents an hour" figure from? A soda & a bag of chips sounds more equivalent to $1.50 - $2.00 (depending on the size of each). Granted, that's still well below minimum wage, but given the circumstances I don't think it's horrible.

Thinking it's funny and all, well that part is a little ****ed up.

If the boss was a truly good guy, he might give the kid minimum wage (what is it in the U.S., $5/hour?), even if the kid takes 4x as long to do the job as a regular worker would.

So I don't see this as outstandingly good or bad. The (low) pay + the self esteem boost may = an overall positive thing.

Hey, this situation being in Germany and all, isn't there some type of government program that would encourage the boss to hire the kid formally and pay him minimum wage (like a tax break or something?)?

-Arrian

	19-09-2003 00:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun but I still cannot agree with the amount this kid is being paid.

While I agree with you in theory... reality says he wouldn't have anything if he had to be paid more.

Now... If some scum bag tried to hire him for 20 hours a week for 50 cents an hour for a real job, I would be the first one to stand up and scream that the kid should be paid properly for the work the he does.

But that's not the case here. While the Bozo's motive might not be in the right place... he is doing that kid a great service by letting him "work". I'm thinking about the kid... not the universe or the big picture. I'm thinking about a disadvantaged youth who probably has few things in his life to be proud of... and not a lot a sense of self worth. The "job" is probably the most important thing in his life... and if he's thrilled to get a bag chips or a coke out of the deal... let him enjoy it.

	19-09-2003 00:44									#25
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quote: I haven't missed the point -- yes, this mentally disabled kid is going to gain a more positive self-esteem, but I still cannot agree with the amount this kid is being paid.

Good thing you aren't involved in the arrangement, then.

You disagree? It's not even your business!

	19-09-2003 00:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And where is the boss going to get the money? Take cash out of the register?

What's he doing now, even if it is just 50 cents? And it could be an independently owned store, you know.

	19-09-2003 00:47									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Where did people get the "50 cents an hour" figure from? A soda & a bag of chips sounds more equivalent to $1.50 - $2.00 (depending on the size of each). Granted, that's still well below minimum wage, but given the circumstances I don't think it's horrible.

From the original poster. First, he says it is a bag of chips OR a pop. and he says it is 50cents worth. not completely accurate, since he's from germany, but obviously he means the smallest unit of each. Which are both under a dollar in Canada.

	19-09-2003 00:48									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ming While I agree with you in theory... reality says he wouldn't have anything if he had to be paid more. Now... If some scum bag tried to hire him for 20 hours a week for 50 cents an hour for a real job, I would be the first one to stand up and scream that the kid should be paid properly for the work the he does. But that's not the case here. While the Bozo's motive might not be in the right place... he is doing that kid a great service by letting him "work". I'm thinking about the kid... not the universe or the big picture. I'm thinking about a disadvantaged youth who probably has few things in his life to be proud of... and not a lot a sense of self worth. The "job" is probably the most important thing in his life... and if he's thrilled to get a bag chips or a coke out of the deal... let him enjoy it.

hmm . . .

I guess that makes sense.

	19-09-2003 00:48									#29
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The boss gives the cash to the kid from his own privat pocket

	19-09-2003 00:48									#30
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Well, look at Sava - he spends all his time posting here and he isn't reimbursed a dime. Isn't that, too, exploitation of the same sort as in the OP?

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