22-09-2003 10:37									#31
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It is just so easy to type words incorrectly, I only ask that I can figure out what it says.

	22-09-2003 17:52									#32
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Well, my turn now...

2150BC – 1250 BC

My strategy in two words for the next few turns: rex and block (all 3 civs). Therefore, aggressive rexxing, min. buildings and military units (except for S+S teams and city police) and LOTS of Settlers.

2150 BC: in Medina, changed the Temple for a Granary. Activated in all cities the Governor, managing citizen moods and production.

2110 BC: since the Carthaginian Warrior would make contact with the Americans, I traded contact with the Americans + 10 gold for Writing and then Ceremonial Burial for 31 gold. Switched to Literature 80% in 25 turns. The other 2 civs are broke. Took out a Barbarian encampment NW of Mecca. Total gold: 93.

2070 BC: Baghdad founded near the inland sea (big lake?); size 2 in 10 turns, therefore Worker in 10 turns. Mecca builds a Settler: the N race to cut off the Japanese starts.
Traded Alphabet for 1 Japanese Worker.

1870 BC: the Americans are building the Oracle in Washington. Traded Writing for Iron Working with the Japanese and the Wheel for 25 gold with Carthage. All 3 civs are now broke.

1790 BC: Najran built E of Osaka.

1700 BC: Worker in Baghdad; time to build a Settler.

1675 BC: our ‘plug’ Scout S died of disease…

1650 BC: our 2nd S+S team races N.

1550 BC: Kufah build between Najran and Mecca. The Japanese are bottled up.

1525 BC: Literature researched, going for the Republic through Philosophy in 8 turns. The Japanese are building the Oracle in Kyoto.

1500 BC: the Spearman in Kufah strayed a bit and destroyed a Barbarian settlement. We decided not to punish him…

1475 BC: we built 3 embassies; cost 101 gold. We traded Horseback Riding 3 times for a total of 60 gold.

1425 BC: Mecca builds another Settler; this S+S team will block the Americans.

1400 BC: Medina builds a Settler: this S+W team will also block the Americans.

1350 BC: 4 American Warriors are heading for the Japanese lands. We are wondering why… Traded Mathematics with Carthage for 25 gold.

1325 BC: researched Philosophy: Code of Laws in 14 turns. Another S+S team from Mecca heading W.

1300 BC: Basra is built.

1275 BC: Hippo (Carthage) is build on the isthmus. Our next city will be on top of the spices…

1250 BC: Khurasan is built; America is cut off. Traded iron Working with Carthage for 50 gold.

Now, how are we standing?

Vs. Japan: + Mathematics, Philosophy and Literature. Gold 235 vs. 0. Number of cities: 8 vs. 3 (but another one coming soon).
Vs. America: + Philosophy and Literature. Gold 235 vs. 22. Number of cities: 8 vs. 5.
Vs. Carthage: + Mathematics, Philosophy and Literature. Gold 211 vs. 0. Number of cities: 8 vs. 5.

Our next moves:
Build a city N of Baghdad (Settler ready in Medina in 2 turns).
Build a city either by the furs or by the coast (Settler underway near Kufah).
Build a city N of Baghdad (Settler ready in Baghdad in 12 turns).
Build a city by the spices N of Hippo (Settler underway).
Build a city by the coast or the Horses W of Mecca (Settler ready in Mecca in 4 turns).

Miscellaneous:
Code of Laws in 10 turns.
2 Settlers, 5 Workers, 7 Warriors and 9 Spearmen.
Why the Spearmen? In Mecca, it takes 3 turns to build them instead of 2 for Warriors. Has a 2 defense vs. 1 for Warriors (mainly against Barbarians) and can be updated up to Mech Infantry. Later on, in Republic, I plan to update all Warriors to Swordsmen (this is why I did not hook up the Iron) or just disband them. Oh, Horses are not hooked up either, I don’t feel the need right now.

Further strategy:

- GLibrary or not? Starting the GLibrary in Mecca (completion in max 45 turns) means no more Settler pump (S+S team every 7 turns). As long as we are rexxing, well, we rex. Afterward, we’ll see (I plan another 5-8 cities). Besides, we are well ahead of techs right now.
- Was the research for Literature useless then? No, because we could get a GL (and deny the GL to another civ) and build the GLibrary, and/or trade Literature away for some high-value tech (Currency, Construction…).
- Heading for the Republic: instead of making a detour for Monarchy, let’s go straight for the Republic. It’s probably only about 35 turns away and 2 techs away, as Monarchy.
- Looking around: Japan is no problem. The burden of 3-4 cities should be taken away from the Americans and Carthage (excellent vassals, both).
- Now, which war? I would suggest the following: we go for Republic, upgrade all Warriors (7 actual + 13 new) and build 10 Horses. 4 stacks of 6 units will take down 4-5 cities (American Horses are vulnerable, BTW). Then regroup, re-built and take down Carthage up to their Big Lake. Use an Ansar Warrior for the last combat, trigger our GA and start building city improvements like crazy. Then, launch the space ship(well, still a few years from now…).

Attachment: 1250bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 66 time(s).

Last edited by Mountain Sage on 23-09-2003 at 16:16

	22-09-2003 17:53									#33
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Ande the save:

Attachment: ms-spaceship-1250 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	23-09-2003 02:56									#34
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Ok, here's the save. Unfortunately, my notes of the turn got lost somewhere along the line, so I just have to final product to review. 6 cities, with 2 settlers coming next turn. Average military vs. everyone else, and 6 turns until Map Making.

The beeline to map making is to get overseas contacts first, which I think is very important for the tech lead. Also, I have a barracks on the way, with the intent to overrun the Japanese sometime in the near future. They are too big a threat to leave unimpeded so close by...

Attachment: abu bakr of the arabs, 1250 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	24-09-2003 08:11									#35
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We are voting tonight, yes? And as part of the Dom team, I voting here, as I understand it.

Based upon:
#, placement, and corruption of cities
Tile improvement
Tech progress (including that of the AI civs)
Economic capability
Military or military potential

... I gotta hand it to alexman.

* CP and corruption... ah, uh, er, well...

* Good balance of growth, workers, and military (in potential).

* Excellent tech... I believe the furthest toward getting out of despotism of anybody on any team. Also, while Dominae referred to it in an earlier thread but did not do it, gifting tech is very smart in this situation.

That said, you guys need to be thinking a bit more about warmongering (yeah, I know, coming from me... ), especially in terms of pruning, luxuries, and GW captures... just generally smacking the AI civs around.

	24-09-2003 08:52									#36
	Time for the decision process Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It is almost midnight EST so I'm going to go ahead and officially declare the second turn block over. Now we will start the process of deciding which saves will begin the next turn block. Per the suggestion of Defcon5 and Master Zen, the team decision will be shuffled around each turn block. Therefore for this turn block the spaceship team would choose for the opportunist team and in turn the domination team will choose for the spaceship team.

In the opportunist DAR 2 thread please post your preference for the next turn save for that team. It is also encouraged, though not mandatory, to discuss and critique the individual saves while posting your preference. The time period for discussing and posting your preference will last until 23:59 EST Thursday, and the next turn block will begin on Friday.

I will keep a running count of the voting updated in the first post of this thread. The choice for the next savegame will be posted in this thread and a brand new DAR 3 thread for the third turn block on Friday.

Please note that in the event of a tie by the end of the decision process either myself or Nuclear Master if I am not around on Thursday (unlikely) will break the tie.

	25-09-2003 08:03									#37
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Hey Dominators, you gonna vote on these or what

	25-09-2003 17:05									#38
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I pondered between Alexman and Defcon5, but I think Alexman wins this one for me, as his terrain improvement is much more up to date with his expansion, therefore has a more productive empire.

Maki's empire was pretty decent too, but again, lack of tile improvements got her down in my standings...

Pretty tough choice again... I think You're in great position to win this one pretty easily!

--Kon--

	26-09-2003 03:48									#39
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alexman:

Need to do some serious work on military, but very well set up so far. I like the large amount of workers you have right now and RCP looks to be right on line for you.

ZargonX

Good size in Mecca but you probably could have pumped a few more settlers out by now and still be at the same point tech/cash wise, even though the capital would have been smaller.

vmxa1
Nice mix of military units, but not much in the way of tile improvement done. Probably relates to the relatively low number of workers.

Tarquinius
Behind on the military, but good set up. Close between you and alexman.

Mountain Sage
Decently set up, but cities are way spaced out right now. Not much in the productive inner ring. Half of the cities are the "one shield wonders..."

Defcon5
Lack of workers and tile improvements. Seems to be a similar set-up to vxma.

Makahlua
Again, a noticeable lack of workers and tile improvements. Good city spacing for big ones later on though.


Overall, it seems that tile improvement was neglected in favor of further expansion/military units. I've found in most of my games that, while REXing is important as is a military pump, it's even more important to continue expanding the potential of the surrounding tiles though roads, mines and irrigation. Overall, I'd have to agree with my Dom team members in that alexman is the best set-up so far. He's managed to do more improvement than most for his capitol and a few of the other inner cities. The sacrifice of a few turns production for the worker usually pays for itself quickly in the increased production/growth/trade from tile improvement.

Good block of turns to everyone.

	26-09-2003 07:17									#40
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Beta's analysis: (yes - I checked all the saves)

Some comparitive, albeit not definitive data. I also considered city improvements, terrain improvements, and city layout.

VXMA
8 cities
HBR, Poly, Mon in 20
5 workers
4 warriors
3 archers
1 sword
1 horse
Started the oracle.

Maki
8 cities 1 settler
HBR, Philo, Code of Laws, Working on Rep
4 workers
5 warriors
9 spears
Started the colussus

Defcon
9 cities (did not get the isthmus )
HBR, Lit, Phil, Code of Laws
2 workers
8 spears
4 warriors

Theseus
8 cities (lots of land) 1 settler
HBR, Philo, Code
9 workers
5 spears
1 archer
5 warriors
Started Colussus

Alex
9 cities (good layout) (3 granaries I think) 1 settler
HBR, almost at Monarchy
11 workers (lots of terrain improvements)
13 warriors (as opposed to the 13th Warrior)
I like the city layout except fror Kufah (maybe one tile SE), but that was likely a RCP decision, (again, with Conquests, RCP RIP!!)

Mtn Sage
7 cities and 2 settlers
Lit, HBR, Code, Philo
5 workers
2 settlers
7 warriors
9 spears

ZargonX

6 cities (what happened Zx, couldn't find any Lego sets to work with. j/k )
Mecca at size 7.
6 workers
3 or 5 warriors (can't read my own writing.)
2 archers
2 spears
1 horse

Alex, for a number of reasons.

I like the city layout. And 9 cities plus one settler.
Excellent city improvements.
A veritable army of workers.
Enough warriors for conversion if the need arises.
Almost at Monarchy, and a government change to reduce corruption. Yes, republic would be better, but Monarchy is quicker, and we are religious, so minimal loss on government changes.

Great round Alexman. Hey, are those two workers over there already starting on the spaceship platform???

	26-09-2003 08:27									#41
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Well, with 4 out of 7 votes cast Alex has a majority; my hat is off.

	26-09-2003 08:50									#42
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The voting for the second turn block is finished and alexman is the choice. Congratulations alexman. The third turn block will be posted in a new DAR thread. Everyone will have 5 days to complete the third turn block. That means the DARs will need to be posted by 23:59 EST Tuesday the 30th.

	26-09-2003 09:18									#43
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My turn (I'll be short this time since I'm a bit in a hurry but I did download every save and checked them out first hand):

alexman - Nice wide RCPed cities is a definite plus, your civ seems really well structured and placed. Thirteen warriors is also great for a mass sworsman upgrade to give you guys more room to expand. Just watch out with that conscript warrior blocking the chokepoint, a horseman can get lucky. Three cities have granaries, very good. Going after monarchy alex? Why not republic? With the mass upgrade you are planning I'm sure you can cripple either civ quickly without worrying about WW.

Defcon5 - nice wide spacing, did a good job of basically cutting off the Japanese from any significant expansion which means they pretty much gone as a major threat in the future. Only one granary though which will make long term expansion not so quick. Also that Carthaginian city above the chokepoint makes me a bit uneasy but well done overall. In techs, literature will sure help and you are on route for republic. Good.

Maki - Spaceship builders seem to like loose spacing! The colossus should add considerably to your science if you manage to build it so good luck. Your northern expansion should also stunt the Japanese. What I like most about your game is that you are already doing Republic, which is definitely the government to go for in this team's play style.

Mountain Sage - whoa, interesting expansion type! I assume you're going to the expand then backfill route which does work wonders as a builder on monarch. The double granaries will alos help heavily in this regard. You are also going for republic and got Lit which is a definite plus IMO. Overall unconventional compared to the other saves, but I like it!

Tarquinius - nice to finally see a tighter city pattern (I'm a fan of tight myself). Overall your save seems extremely confortable to play with. I miss the lack of a second granary though but you got lucky in that the US apparently has not expanded much in the east. Good going for republic but seems you are a tech behind most of the other saves.

vmxa1 - Going for monarchy also... nice spacing and nice cities, got two granaries and temples in many of them. Also nice to see the US hasn't expanded too much either. I think you could use a few more workers, then again, my own save had the same problem. I also wonder why you are using Mecca for shield accumulation when it's a fantastic settler pump.

ZargonX - whoa! size 7 Mecca! First time I see that. Lots of improvements and two granaries is a plus, however, I think you've been pretty slow to expand since you only have 6 cities when other guys have 9 and a settler. You should start cranking out the settlers pretty quick (I see you will get 2 next turn, that is a definite plus).


The verdict: it goes down to alexman vs. Mountain Sage. A lot of workers for alexman means that empire is going to get very powerfull soon, plus with all the warriors, a quick war can do wonders. Mountain Sage is closer to anyone to get republic which I think in this case is better than monarchy (or rather monarchy being not so urgent), and his placement is unconventional yet sound in theory in the long run although I would have wished for a more productive core.

I would have loved to see both saves in action but I'll go for alexman. Good job everyone else.

	26-09-2003 10:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen vmxa1 - Going for monarchy also... nice spacing and nice cities, got two granaries and temples in many of them. Also nice to see the US hasn't expanded too much either. I think you could use a few more workers, then again, my own save had the same problem. I also wonder why you are using Mecca for shield accumulation when it's a fantastic settler pump.

Yeah, that was what I said I need more workers. There really is no shield saving in Mecca as I only just set it to the wonder this turn. I would have reasseted it if I was to play it out. I figured there was no need to decide what to do in Mecca as the block was over.

	26-09-2003 10:15									#45
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damn I just saw I was 18 minutes late. Anyway, constructive criticism doesn't hurt I guess... good luck next round, looking good