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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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Medieval Age is a good time to attack because of supply wagons, and because your economy will be developed enough to give you a large advantage after taking an economic city from the enemy. Also because Medieval Age is cool. Supply wagons prevent attrition and, more importantly, double your siege unit’s rate of fire in enemy territory.
The strong early German economy suits this plan nicely. With extra city production and early granaries you can reach the Commerce 2 cap with two cities and before Classical Age. In multiplayer this is effective against players who boom to Gunpowder or later. It is weakest versus an Ancient or perhaps Classical attack. This article assumes 1v1 play with Germans, but can be applied to teams and other nations with slight modifications.
When you attack earlier than your opponent it is important to take a city of economic significance. In Medieval Age this can be their second or third city, and on an arena map you might go for the capitol. Scout to find the best target. A city with 2 farms and a temple is not a good target. If your opponent has reached Medieval it will be a Large City (or if they are China). You will have sufficient siege (and supply) to take it down.
Start with Science, Civic, Commerce and build as normal. I like to get my food and timber close to +100 before building a market unless I have exceptional rares. You don’t need a great deal of early wealth to pull this off. A caravan and too many merchants can slow farm and citizen production more than we would like, but each game will have different circumstances.
When you reach +100 for food and timber, and have a market, research Science 2. Then plan for Commerce 2. I usually build a farm or two more than the +100 limit in anticipation. The 30 food completion bonus nearly offsets the citizen cost, and will not slow your commerce research alot. Build a granary as soon as is prudent and research Commerce 2. You will be at +140 food without any rares (+150 if you make 2 granaries and bison is really nice to have). You can get by with +110-130 for timber. Go higher if you anticipate resource problems for some reason, but remember that fewer citizens mean a faster Classical Age. Your population is around 21-24 when you research classical.
Now Classical Age. I make a citizen or two extra before classical to build a mine immediately. Your university can be delayed a little, but not much. Delay it if you have knowledge rare resources. Fill up your mine asap, and maybe build another if only for the completion bonus. 7-10 miners are appropriate, less if you have lots of metal rares. On some maps you are lucky to have a 6 man mountain within your territory and will need to be very prudent with your metal. 2-4 scholars allow for timely Medieval research (225 knowledge), this will depend on your rares among other things.
Research Military 1 when you reach the population cap, and send a citizen to build a barracks. Then research Military 2 (90f/90m) and start a siege factory and then a stable. Research herbal lore and start making your army. Resources generally allow for 3-5 LI, 2-4 HI, 2-4 LC, and 2-3 HC; it varies based on many things. If you have excess of certain resources, spend it. Make your 3 catapults quickly; they are slow building and slow moving.
Research Medieval Age when your army is nearly complete, and build a supply wagon. Start upgrading the troops you have most of. If you're certain that you will attack a small city, you can avoid upgrading your catapults to trebs, this can save you alot of timber and metal. Then attack. You should reach the enemy city around the 10 or 11 minute mark on a 2/3 player map.
Hit the city and reduce it asap. The most important thing is to protect your siege. I don’t like the alt-right click siege attack because it leaves your siege somewhat vulnerable to cavalry and ranged attacks. Better to assign your trebs to a separate group, and have your army overlap them as much as possible while moving and while attacking. I prefer to keep all my units out of city firing range and let the trebs do the work. Against Korea you will need to attack the repairing citizens. You will have a stronger army than a booming opponent, so if he attacks he will most likely go for your siege or supply wagon(s). Protect your siege at all costs; use cavalry to cut down ranged attackers and heavy infantry to protect from cavarly. You have a counter to every unit, use it.
As soon as you attack find out if your opponent is going to make troops, or concede the city and attempt to out boom you. Keep your scout busy and find out what hes up to. Find his barracks and/or stable and destroy them as soon as you have reduced the city. Most people's first instinct is to make troops, if they do this you're in good shape. You have significantly hurt his economy and can surely out produce him. Send reinforcements...cavalry and light infantry are your fastest units. Bring citizens to repair the city before it is assimilated. Soon you will have the defenses and production of the city on your side. If you can hold on to the city you will win.
If he is trying to boom and out-tech and you, start expanding your economy. You will have a resource advantage after taking his city. Make more scholars, and get science 3 so you can research the knowledge tech at the university. Create two more caravans even before the city is assimilated. They will generate lots of wealth with the increased distance and they need time establish a route. Provided you expand your economy in a timely manner, you can easily out-produce him and win the game. If he has made almost no military, heal your troops and send them on raids. Have your Siege attack his buildings that are in range. Take out any buildings you can target safely. Farms go down really fast. University is good too.
Whichever route he chooses you are in a strong position if you can capture his city. Note that if your opponent has also planned a medieval attack, you are in for an interesting game that is not within the scope of this article.
The same ideas apply to water maps, except you go Science then Commerce first, and build fisherman instead of farms. You might build a few farms and a granary; fisherman get expensive and you may benefit from the building completion bonuses and herbal lore. I tried this on Australian Outback and was able to attack with a comparable army at the 9 minute mark, and with lots of extra wealth. On water maps you might want to go straight for the capital, as they will likely not have invested as much in their second or third cities. Scout to find the best target.
To recap: Science 1, Civic 1, Commerce 1, Science 2, Commerce 2, Classical Age, Military 1, Military 2, Medieval Age
On water maps switch the first civic and commerce. If you strongly suspect (or scout) an early rush get Military 1 sooner. This will slow your economic growth though.
There is a replay of this strat here:
http://ron.pcgaminguniverse.com/for...&CODE=02&id=234
That game has me playing as Romans, but will give a good idea of what to do. I think I went Classical before Commerce 2 as Romans. Basically Germany has a stronger economy and earlier granary. I don't have any competitive games of me as Germans, as most matches have been a walkover with this strategy. I'll post a good one as soon as I can.
Last edited by HalfLotus on 20-09-2003 at 00:29
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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On maps with very little metal in your starting territory(great lakes, for example) you will need to cut back on either siege, heavy cav, or heavy inf. I would suggest cutting back on heavy cav and make more light cav to compensate. You really need your unique heavy inf. as cavalry is the biggest threat to your seiege and supply. You can also opt to not upgrade your Catapults which saves over 100 metal. Trebs do a little more damage, and have more hit points.
In games where you might have severe metal or timber problems, start your caravan route sooner and collect as much wealth as possible. Save wealth by not building a second granary, and build only as many scholars as needed. Use this wealth to purchase resources at the market.
This is another advantage over an ancient or classical attack. You have commerce 2 to buy your way out of emergencies. On water maps you will get plenty of wealth from fishing, and maybe some extra metal. You will be in a comfortable resource situation. So will your opponent though. You may want to cut back on light cav or light infantry and make 1-2 light ships to destroy his fishing just before you launch your siege attack. Your opponent will most likely invest in a heavy ship and/or more fishermen. This will leave his city more vulnerable to capture.
Last edited by HalfLotus on 20-09-2003 at 00:50
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Out4Blood
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Good post. Although you kinda left out opponent reactions and what you should do to counter.
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Out4Blood
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It's your article, you tell me.
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Out4Blood
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Between good players, contact and raiding usually start at around the 5-6 minute mark. Your build isn't taking any of that into account. What happens when you get hit with the inevitable raid?
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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Another scenario: If your opponent goes Classical much earlier than you intend to, you should also go Classical earlier (to prepare for potential attack). I would suspect a heavy infantry attack on one of your cities (maybe a 150 rush), or horse archer/heavy cav raiding. Build a barracks and stable not long after reaching classical then continue to grow your economy. Be prepared to fight off the rush/raid. Scout, scout, scout. If you see a barracks suspect the 150 rush, if you see a stable suspect raiding.
Though early Classical doesn’t always mean an early attack...some civs can go earlier classical even when booming (Inca), and some players go early classical if they have very good metal and knowledge rares. Scout, scout, scout. =)
Last edited by HalfLotus on 21-09-2003 at 11:07
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:30
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Ahh yes, in the first few days after RoN came out, I remember doing some experiements with Mongol raiding. Get a number of stables, use their free units + the bonuses, to raid the crap out of your enemy, and supplement that with a Supply Wagon ASAP in Medieval.
Out4Blood, being the RTS expert he is, though, has a reason to play it aggressively and with raids  .
My preference, though, usually is not attacking till the Medieval Age, except for the Greeks (or was that Romans?) with whom I tried that Heavy Infantry push.
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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My first loss with this strat came today vs Spanish on Australian Outback. I got 100 in ruins, he got 1000. His free heavy ship destroyed several of my fisherman. His economy was way ahead; he then came with Horse archers which I countered pretty easily, but the damage had been done. My attack didnt come til about 12:30. I took his second city, but he ended up an age ahead and won quite easily. He was a bit better than me (2000+) but it was a humbling experience. Never again will I underestimate the Spanish! I need to get better at finding ruins. GG to redrum!
Last edited by HalfLotus on 22-09-2003 at 22:39
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Madine
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I was beat by this strat once. I made some mistakes in that game though, and I think I could have beat back the initial attack.
It's a good strat though. However I do think that in general the success of a pre-gunpowder attack depends on your opponent not being prepared.
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Out4Blood
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I normally just get the other upgrades first - I'll even go classical first.
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Out4Blood
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On my way to a capitol, I usually research COM1. Once I sack the capitol, I research SCI1 and CLASSICAL. This gives me the option of upgrading troops and finishing them off, or by booming and dropping a second city. IMO, there's no hurry for the CIV1 tech because I can't drop another city until he fights me off, but I need to spend the money as quickly as possible. So I go classical and use it to invest in miners and a university. I use the mayhem and sack bonus to leapfrog the other guy. I'll get a second city when I can, but I'll still be way ahead of him.
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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I think you misread my post and didnt watch the replay. Try and keep up.
quote:
IMO, there's no hurry for the CIV1 tech because I can't drop another city until he fights me off, but I need to spend the money as quickly as possible. |
I said the key was "building a second city before capturing his capitol". The operative word there is _before_. In the replay I researched Sci 1 and Civics 1 while my troops were en route, and built a second city just as my troops arrived at his capitol. This put me at 2/2 cities and then I capture his capitol.
I got the sack bonus and immediately built farms in the second city then researched Comm 1, Sci 2 and Comm 2 and THEN Classical Age. This is the optimal Boom order and is much stronger than a 1 city Classical Age. 1 city Classical is a very weak boom, and I seriously doubt you'd be "leapfrogging" anyone. If you have a replay please post it.
quote:
On my way to a capitol, I usually research COM1 |
So you research the +100 commerce cap, but you only have 1 city so you're stuck with +60 food (which doesnt even max the original cap of +70,  ). I guess you could spend a ton of food to max your lumber at +100, but that is a waste of resources to say the least. Food is the limiting factor in early game.
I'd also like to see a replay of Ancient rushing and then upgrading troops to Classical to "finish him off". As long as your opp. has a barracks to garrison in, you are at an extreme disadvantage while trying to hold the capitol. Any competent opponent will recapture his capitol and then have a much stronger economy than you. In my experience it's suicidal to spend your +500 plunder on more troops.
Last edited by HalfLotus on 30-09-2003 at 22:57
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Out4Blood
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quote:
I got the sack bonus and immediately built farms in the second city then researched Comm 1, Sci 2 and Comm 2 and THEN Classical Age. This is the optimal Boom order and is much stronger than a 1 city Classical Age. 1 city Classical is a very weak boom, and I seriously doubt you'd be "leapfrogging" anyone. If you have a replay please post it. |
I'm not so sure about the COM2, CIV2 boom approach in general. I don't think it's better than an early classical. But enough debate. You can prove me wrong.
Also, the whole notion of attacking in the ancient age does nothing but support my original argument: there are only two good times to attack. Ancient age before they get MIL1 and later, around gunpowder. If you're beating people with Medieval attacks it's probably because they did someting wrong (like not scouting or not making troops). Although I confess, I have not watched your game.
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Also, the whole notion of attacking in the ancient age does nothing but support my original argument: there are only two good times to attack. Ancient age before they get MIL1 and later, around gunpowder. |
Huh? This makes no sense. I've got replays of me beating equal opponents with classical age and medieval age attacks. What have you got? And if you had watched the replay, you'd know that he researched Mil 1 before my rush! Man, what are you smoking??
quote:
If you're beating people with Medieval attacks it's probably because they did someting wrong (like not scouting or not making troops). Although I confess, I have not watched your game. |
I'll tell you a secret about RoN. Any time is a good time for an attack so long as your opponent is still booming. Thats the whole reason I wanted to come up with the Classical and Medieval attacks was so I could defeat gunpowder and enlightenment boomers. Guess what, it works, and I have the replays to prove it. A medieval attack especially cannot be stopped by a small army. If a player is booming past medieval (which 90% do) he will not have a comparable army and will not prevent you from taking a major city. I've already explained it in this very thread! Medieval attack does not win every time, nor does Classical or Ancient. But they can all defeat a boomer.
You don't have multiplayer experience and you havent watched these rec games, and you don't read my posts before replying, and you don't listen to experts like tuf_richter. Your credibility is wearing thin. If you want to know what's possible you should play vs people, testing against the AI is giving you the wrong idea.
Last edited by HalfLotus on 01-10-2003 at 01:47
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Out4Blood
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Half_Lotus. There's no need to be so negative. I'm not questioning your manhood. So relax.
I've made no claims about being credible, although I do play people and I do watch games. In fact that's why I posted what I did. I've been around and that's what I've seen. Sorry, that I didn't watch your game - if I get around to it, maybe I will.
But just because I have NOT watch your particular game doesn't mean I cannot challenge some of the blanket generalizations you make. This in particular:
quote:
... then researched Comm 1, Sci 2 and Comm 2 and THEN Classical Age. This is the optimal Boom order ... |
If you've followed any of the discussion at all over at HF, then you'd know that I have reason to believe it isn't. And there's been no analysis or discussion on this topic at all - other than comments like yours, "This is the right way to do things" and "You're wrong 'cause you're not an expert!"
I'm challenging those beliefs and am proposing people back them up. Are you willing to back it up or are you just going to hide behind ad hominem?
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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It's cool dude. I will concede that there may be another BO which is stronger than sci 2, comm 2, classical. I had followed the conventional wisdom from the MFO article and the BHG strat guide. Seeing that you have found something different, I am open to new ideas. Good luck with your testing.
My original point (which you didnt read) was that you should build your second city before taking their capitol and immediately develop it (with plunder bonus), rather than wait for them to retake the capitol as you stated. This will give you a much larger advantage regardless of how you time your classical age.
And I have challenged your belief that attacking in classical/medieval age is not effective. I have provided explanations and replays to back it up. Are you going to keep debating my assertions about classical/medieval attacks without watching these rec games or reading my posts?
And this statement in particular:
quote:
Also, the whole notion of attacking in the ancient age does nothing but support my original argument: there are only two good times to attack. Ancient age before they get MIL1 and later, around gunpowder. |
What does a successful ancient rush have to do with the effectiveness of other attacks? Because the anceint rush works that means classical/medieval attacks do not? I really dont understand your statement.
Last edited by HalfLotus on 01-10-2003 at 04:10
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Out4Blood
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No. I DID read it. You also said this:
quote:
This allows you to immediately spend the +500 plunder to expand economy with new farms, market, temple, dock, etc. ... |
To which I said: "I normally just get the other upgrades first - I'll even go classical first." To which you replied:
quote:
What other upgrades? |
Which gets us back to the early classical versus COM2 boom question. You can ALSO "expand your economy with a classical expansion.
Anyway. I'd be interested to see your try at the RON Challenge Game. Load it up and see for yourself which way works best for you. Share with everyone. You might come up with a different, better way.
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HalfLotus
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ATL, shorty.
Sep 2001
time: 00:30
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I have no desire to test such things. I've done some testing already and it is slow and boring, I'll leave that to others.
Why do you avoid every other issue I bring up? It's apparent that you only want to discuss a few selective topics. If you aren't prepared to discuss _all_ of your claims, please find other threads to post in. Onto the discussion...
It doesn't take us to the Classical debate. Here's a few ends which you left loose. When I asked what other upgrades you replied:
quote:
On my way to a capitol, I usually research COM1. |
I asked why you research comm 1 instead of civics 1 when you have only one city.
quote:
I research SCI1 and CLASSICAL. This gives me the option of upgrading troops and finishing them off |
I said that finishing off someone is not going to work against a decent opponent because he can garrison/heal. Conventional wisdom says you should invest the plunder in your economy. Do you have any replays of finishing off a rush with Classical upgraded troops? Do you destroy the barracks as well?
quote:
IMO, there's no hurry for the CIV1 tech because I can't drop another city until he fights me off, but I need to spend the money as quickly as possible. |
This is why I think you didn't read my reply. You obviously missed the part where I said you can build your second city _before_ taking his capitol. **Regardless of whether you go classical before or after sci 2/comm 2** it is better to have two cities so you can immediately build more farms and reach the food commerce cap, and start a trade route, AND have the innate production of the second city. You can spend your plunder much faster and more efficiently with two cities and your economy will expand much faster than with only one city. Doing it your way means you are stuck at +60 food, and with no trade route, and with very little territory for making mines/lumber camps. Why do you wait so long to found your second city?
quote:
I'll get a second city when I can, but I'll still be way ahead of him. |
My experience has been the exact opposite. I assume you've done this before. Would you share the replay please?
quote:
Also, the whole notion of attacking in the ancient age does nothing but support my original argument: there are only two good times to attack. Ancient age before they get MIL1 and later, around gunpowder. |
I've had great success with Classical and Medieval attacks, most of which I shared here at Apolyton. How did you come to this conclusion and what evidence do you have to support it? Curiously you have chosen the most popular strat (booming) and designated it the most powerful. You also claim that all games play out the same, and that there are only two times for effective attack. It would seem that your opinions are based solely on recorded games and popular opinion, and not on actual game experience. How much multiplayer have you played?
quote:
If you're beating people with Medieval attacks it's probably because they did someting wrong (like not scouting or not making troops). Although I confess, I have not watched your game. |
I give you the benefit of the doubt with your Classical ideas, and you insist that I try your "challenge". Yet you dismiss my Medieval ideas without even looking at the evidence provided. 
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19-09-2003 10:18
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