19-09-2003 10:54									#1
	Civ Respawn ends in 1500 Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

When I checked out of here last spring, SG(2) urged me to lurk even if I couldn't play or post. So, when my eyes allowed I have kept up with the Strat and General Forums. Along with noting again how much his passing affected me, I will miss his robust constructive criticisms and marvel at how much he shared with all of us.

There is one continuing question that folk are confused about, that being, "when does civ respawn stop??" I did some testing when this came up last December in a Deity, Raging, MGE SXN game.

Respawn stops as of 1500ad. NOT 1750.

Rather than adding yet another unconfirmed comment I found a save from that game to lead a new thread. Hope this is useful.

I include a save from the beginning of 1500. Attack and raze Rhodes and see for yourself. Hit the space bar a million times to end the turn. Check the Dipolmacy screen, in 1510, and you will see there is no longer an Orange Civ.

Now, if -Jrabbit (please) will check this out we will know about the Mac too. Someone else will have to find a save for Vanilla 242.

Monk

Attachment: ap_a1500.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	19-09-2003 13:37									#2
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Thank you very much, Monk.
Too bad your eyes don't allow more at the moment.
I strongly hope that the moment will be short.

	19-09-2003 17:50									#3
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It's great that you're still committed to the worship of Civ 2. I reckon it must hurt your eyes to look at the monitor so long, so playing through the pain shows your dedication to the finest game around (still).

I know that this is a theoretical question as it's highly unlikely it would ever happen, but if there were 255 cities before 1500, you captured the last city of a rival civ and built one in your turn, then would the game even bother to stick another settler on the map to just wander for the rest of the game, or would it consider the civ dead?

	19-09-2003 22:44									#4
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Download complete. Emailing to the Mac...

	19-09-2003 23:08									#5
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I know that this is a theoretical question as it's highly unlikely it would ever happen, but if there were 255 cities before 1500, you captured the last city of a rival civ and built one in your turn, then would the game even bother to stick another settler on the map to just wander for the rest of the game, or would it consider the civ dead?

DoY

Logic suggests a settler would be generated, but who can say without a test.

Personally, I think that many cities makes for a suicide inducing state of boredom, but to each his own. We have all, probably, tried one record type game; but, I'd never do that again. So, if you want to perform a test, have at it. That is the only way to know for sure.

Thanks for the good thoughts. I wish I could "play through the pain" as you say, but for now, just reading the threads is a stretch. However, I must report that playing a game completely in one's head is not the same.

Monk

	20-09-2003 01:11									#6
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I think the key is number of turns, not date, which is different for Deity and normal Emp. I think the 1750 is for large Emp or King.

	20-09-2003 01:39									#7
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I thought Deity WAS the norm.

Whatever the drop dead date for other levels may be IS determinable by testing. That's why I supplied a save for anyone to check out. The problem (confusion) has come from far too many "I think" posts. No offense intended; and you may well be right. But --I think-- we can only nail this down by posting a save (along with a report about the operation of respawn on the previous turn.) This way it can be verified across our many and varied operating systems, etc.

So, Ellie, do you have any Emp or King saved games whereby this can be checked?? It would be of interest to have this question settled, yes?? Thanks

Anyone with saved games that demonstrate the end of respawn please jump in. I agree that this is a rather minor, hardly ever critical, point; but, it does keep coming up, so let's put this question to bed.

Monk

	20-09-2003 03:03									#8
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Technically, this method only proves "doesn't always" or "doesn't necessarily" respawn. (But I doubt the lazy programmers bothered with delta-percentage for respawn based on year/number of turns, so it's still good knowledge.)

	20-09-2003 03:15									#9
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Does that mean you confirm no respawn in1500 on the Mac??

Monk

	29-09-2003 12:22									#10
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Monk,

thank you for bringing this up. I wanted to do some tests on the restart setting since I played a game where I overlooked the restart option and just couldnīt figure out why and when AIīs would respawn. I can confirm that on deity restarts stop in 1500. They still happen in 1480.

Some other observations I made: there is always respawning until 75 BC (king to deity level). Between 100 BC and the end date respawning is random generated. The probability is influenced by at least 3 factors: more turns played, more AI left and a lower difficulty level result in a lower probability of respawns. In 75 BC the probability of not having a restart is appr. 1 out of 20. On king king level you soon come to an even probability of having no respawn (100 AD, 6 AI) or to a high probability (260 AD, 6 AI) while on deity respawns are much more likely and still occur in 1480 AD with an even probability.

Donīt ask me for an exact formula. After killing some 500 AI civs (they call me the merciless now ), I am far from suggesting how to calculate the overall probability for respawns. But the findings might be interesting anyway.

Respawns occur immediately. The only exception: bribing the last settler of an AI. The respawn is then processed with the next turn. It doesnīt help to destroy several AI in the same turn. There may be several respawns in the same turn and it seems the probabilty of respawns is not changed.

There are more interesting questions. Where do the respawns occur? It is random generated but I am sure there are factors influencing the probability (distance to existing cities, distance to the last city destroyed(?)). Anyone has information on this?

Zenon

	29-09-2003 21:56									#11
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sorry

	29-09-2003 21:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Zenon used to be an early lander. He is now a civ killer. The #1 spy killer salutes you

	29-09-2003 23:41									#13
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Zenon,

Thank you very much for the testing and verification work.

It is interesting to note your finding that a probabilty exists, prior to 1500, Deity, for a respawn to NOT occur.

When I first started playing I thought the "no restart" option was a no brainer. Why allow the weeds to grow back after being sought out and chopped down?? I was focused on conquest or aggressive defense. Then I came here and learned about the virtues of trade and later, Key Civ, and having more trading partners, possiblities, through allowing restarts came to mind. Having the AI kill your Key Civ, with resarts off, is not a happy moment.

So I began to play more games with restarts on; but I never noticed your result that a killed civ/color may not resart in the earlier stages of the game. Good catch!! I wonder what other variables are operative in that probability function??

At least we can hang our hats on the 1500 peg for Deity. Thanks

Monk

	30-09-2003 02:44									#14
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Monk,

thanks for the comment. I wish I had more material for testing, but I couldnīt find early games below deity anymore where I could test the end date.

What I realized during the tests is that the restarts on setting is default. Probably like most of the players I soon switched to no restarts in my early games. Finding some lonely settler on the map after destroying a dozen AI civs can be boring. But the creators of civ 2 obviously put some effort in conceiving rules that would allow a conquest depending on difficulty level and number of turns played. They didnīt forsee that players would generally switch to no restarts.

May be they restart setting is more interesting than we generally thought. If there are rules unknown there is also a challenge.

La Fayette, I noticed your 604 landing in GOTM 31. You certainly belong to the early landers yourself

Zenon

	30-09-2003 15:18									#15
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To make it clear then, you can only have a restart on the same or next turn after a civ has been destroyed. Therefore, if the civ dies and the parameters are not right for a restart, or if the random factor you mention "misses", then that colour civ can never rejoin the game.
Is it possible for the random factor to "hit", but because there is not enough space to restart the civ, then there is no rebirth, but a new settler will appear when the other conditions, independent of randomness, apply?
This would also suggest that a civ split, where a single civ (top of the powergraph) splits into two factions, one belonging to the original owner of the cities and the other to a previously extinct civ, cannot take place before 1500.

	01-10-2003 13:24									#16
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I have tested now where respawns occur. It is always the colour of the civilization destroyed that reappears in a random spot. Units do not effect reappearance. The closest distance to an existing city I saw was 7. It is usually 9 or more (simple distance measured in steps). I then tried to narrow the possibilities by founding cities at places where the restart appeared and repeated the process. I thought I could then easier determine the conditions for a respawn. The surprising effect: the probability of a respawn became lower during the process. The only explanation I see is that the program randomly tries a certain number of places. If there is none suitable there is no respawn. If there are cities even in remote places respawns stop completely even before 1500.

This also means I have to question my former findings. I didnīt take this into account. The only certain rules so far: there is a random factor for respawns to occur (or better to NOT occur). The probability is lower if the available free space is reduced by other cities. Respawns stop after 175 turns (deity).

At least this gives an idea how to improve conquest with restarts on: found cities all over the map!


Duke, I have never seen a restart that did not occur immediately after destroying a civ. As for the split: I think this is a different process. If you destroy the capital of a civilization superior in power rating to your own you just need a free colour for the rebel faction. IIRC splits occur before 1500.

Zenon

	01-10-2003 17:18									#17
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Zenon, there is an anecdote that respawning civs occur precisely in places where there is an unpopped hut. Do your findings confirm that?

	01-10-2003 20:02									#18
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Zenon,

Very good!! Does this new finding indicate that in a game where you specified 7 civs but only 6 appeared that the probability of respawn is reduced?? (Assumption: the purple civ failed to generate due to lack of "good" site, and respawn uses the same decision rule.)

Thanks for all your work.

Monk

	05-10-2003 01:17									#19
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Monk, a very interesting idea. I have done some more tests and from what I have seen Iīd say there is enough evidence to assume, that indeed starting and restarting conditions are based on the same process. The number of civs that make it also has a random factor. If you start a game on a very small premade map you may get 5 civs in one and 6 civs in the second start. Also, on very small maps where less than 7 civs make it there is a high probability of having no respawn even early in the game, as you assumed, whereas on bigger maps with enough suitable terrain it is almost impossible to prevent a respawn early on. I covered the map with cities and gave up, when the respawning civs appeared even within city limits. This never happened later in the game and would certainly never happen under normal conditions. I think that the neccessary distance to existing cities is one of the factors that changes during the game.

The availability of suitable terrain obviously is a factor. The fact that the human player sometimes gets an almost impossible starting position (like on one of the poles) probably is an exception. Obviously the human player has to be placed while an AI can be left out.

Another factor is the distance to other civilizations. Under normal conditions the civs are distributed more or less equally on the map. On a test map with a big continent consisting of mountains and a small continent with good terrain all 7 civs always started (and respawned) on the small continent. Whatever the program considers to be suitable terrain it seems to check this for each continent. On a continent that has suitable terrain the (re)start can happen on a mountain in an area that we would consider as very difficult. I think that the program first checks a random continent and - if the terrain is suitable in general - then places the civ with a good distance to other civs. If a certain number of checks fail there is no (re)start.

I think I have reached a dead end with this little research. I am sure there is a random factor in the restarting process. But to test the probabilities you need to know what factors play a role. We donīt even know how exactly the terrain affects a (re)starting position. Also there are to many possible factors that play a role (and may influence each other): map size, number of civs, distance, difficulty level, turns played etc. However, for those interested I think I can give this conclusion:

1. Starts and restarts are determined in a process that includes a random factor.
2. The probability of starts and restarts depends on the availability of suitable terrain. Existing cities narrow the availability of terrain.
3. The probability of a restart becomes lower in the process of a game.
4. Restarts end after a certain number of turns (175 for deity).

Not very much, but at least some indications how to deal with „restarts on“.

Grigor, respawns certainly do not regularly appear on fields with huts. This seems indeed to be one of the civ legends. On the contrary, I never noticed this.

Zenon

	06-10-2003 00:51									#20
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Zenon,

This is another in a long line of thoughtful well written posts you have submitted, recently. Thanks, much!!

Monk

	22-10-2003 06:38									#21
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The CFC Game of the Month #33 shows clearly that on Emperor level the 1500AD cutoff does not apply. In 1760 I wiped out all the AI on the same turn and they immediately respawned. However, I found all the settlers and on the next turn I simultaneously bribed every AI settler, but the game did not end! On the next turn all civs respawned.

The map size is custom between small and medium, flat, and there are only 5 civs.

I will attach a save, but nobody can read my saves on Apolyton, so if somebody wants to check I will email them.

Attachment: grigor gotm 33 1760 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	24-10-2003 15:29									#22
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Grigor, thats interesting and weird at the same time. Why would the designer make a conquest more difficult on a lower level? Looks like another bug to me.

I would test the (possible) end date on king and emperor but I have absolutely no material, not even an OCC. And I donīt want to play a whole game just to get a test situation. If someone would care to post or send a sav just before 1750 (king or emperor, restarts on) Iīd volunteer to test it. (Canīt use yours Grigor, at least not yet :-) )

Zenon

	24-10-2003 15:42									#23
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I am currently playing the same game as Grigor
... with full respawning (5 civs) in 1590.
I'll send you a save in 1750 (or slightly sooner, if I manage to win sooner )

	24-10-2003 19:56									#24
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Has anyone ever won a game by bribing a respawned AI's settler?

Grigor, there is also no respawn if you wipe out all of the AI on the same turn. Since the respawns occur after the turn in which the AI was destroyed, then if you can take them all out in one go they will not all come back. This is the only way to get a quick conquest when respawns are on. I have tested this on all levels.

	25-10-2003 02:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Grigor, there is also no respawn if you wipe out all of the AI on the same turn.

Sorry, duke
Many of us thought this was true, but Zenon has just tested that it isn't + I am playing GOTM 33 (same game as Grigor) and I just wiped out all civs on the same turn in 1590 and all 5 civs respawned at once

	25-10-2003 04:55									#26
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Sorry, duke 'o york. I tried exactly your suggestion, and in that GOTM 33 it was not successful. All the AI were taken out in 1756 on one turn. On the next turn, I found all the new settlers and parked a military unit next to them blocking them from settling. Then the next turn I bribed all the AI settlers. No dice. The next turn the tribes all respawned. The terrain was pretty bleak for the AI by that time, too, and some came back on islands with only hills.

I am sure that you are accurately reporting the results of your tests, but it seems that you have only proved that under some conditions civs will not respawn after 1500 AD. There seem to be other factors which may come into play.

This was emperor level, and an odd-sized map with some terrain modification done by the moderator. Otherwise, it was a normal game, not a scenario.

I will be away for the next 2 weeks and unable to test, but this seems like a typically knotty Civ II problem and I hope somebody can get a handle on it.

	27-10-2003 02:28									#27
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I think I have found the end date on Emperor: respawns end in 1770 (after 210 turns), at least on a normal medium sized map, 7 civs, 2.42. They still happen in 1768.

I also found that respawns always happened in this test, even on tiny islands and when I settled all continents/islands even within city limits. This is definitely different from what I have seen on deity and also on king level, were a random factor applies.

Zenon

	27-10-2003 13:32									#28
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Could the GOTM33 results be due to there being only 5 civs?

Stu

	27-10-2003 16:55									#29
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I donīt think so. I did not test on the GOTM 33 map but on a normal medium sized one with 7 civs and the results are so far consistent with what Grigor and La Fayette found (or should we say endured )

Zenon

	29-10-2003 15:05									#30
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Well my tests are shonky anyway because they were on the PS version, and I haven't bothered to faff about with MGE. I would not be surprised if various things were changed to make Civ 2 better compatible with the PS engine.