25-05-2000 04:34									#1
	elledatiZ: The Enigma Clue Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This is a clue for an upcoming scenario. Here are 2 hints to solving this. 1: look at the strange-looking map 2: The arrows. I blanked out a lot so it wouldn't give away much, but if you get it don't tell and email me which side you'd like to play. Happy Hunting!!!
[This message has been edited by The ANZAC (edited May 24, 2000).]

	25-05-2000 05:06									#2
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Kursk.

	25-05-2000 06:08									#3
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OK, I guess this was a badly easy clue! Oh well! But which side would you rather play as?

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"There's one more thing you men can say when it's all over and you're home once more. You can thank God that twenty years from now when you're sitting by the fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you what you did in the war, you won't have to shift him to the other knee, cough and say, 'I shovelled **** in Louisiana.'"
-General George S. Patton addressing his troops before D-Day landings June 1944

	25-05-2000 06:28									#4
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Germany, I suppose.

	25-05-2000 07:14									#5
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Yes, you must be a master at posting clues.

	25-05-2000 07:27									#6
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I actually guessed from the thread title alone, didn't need the map.

What side to play? It is a tough choice because victory is not easy to define... The Soviets suffered much higher casualties but prevented the Germans from reaching their objectives. Eventually the Soviets replaced their HUGE losses much faster than the Germans and were able to push the Germans back, but the accounts of the battle that I have don't match the more common versions.

According to these articles the German Panzerdivisions only lost about 70-80 tanks against losses of 500-600 for the Soviet V Guard Tank Army...and then were withdrawn by the OKW (Actually AH himself)... basically not a victory or defeat but a stalemate...
Really throws cold water on "The Greatest Tank Battle in History"...
The more common account, mostly from Soviet historians, had the Soviets overrunning the Panzers and destroying 100's of them... It may have been Stalin's wishful thinking or the propaganda he needed to keep the war effort up (Kursk is considered the first "Summer Victory" for the Soviet Army) but the real numbers don't support it.

The easiest to portray would probably be a Soviet AI because his tactics typically mimic the Soviet style at Kursk (Massive suicidal charges...), however who would want to play those evil Huns?


[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited May 24, 2000).]

	25-05-2000 20:03									#7
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Kursk? Come on, are you sure its not killer bees? Big Soviet 5 year plan killer bees?

	26-05-2000 01:46									#8
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Hey, I think we got a good match here on MP. Comrade Nemo vs. Field Marshal Scott

	26-05-2000 02:53									#9
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Maybe if I had two versions: one for Germans and the other for Russians that would settle the problem? Also, Captain Nemo, you probably guessed it was Kursk because elledatiZ is Zitadelle spelled backwards, right?

------------------
"There's one more thing you men can say when it's all over and you're home once more. You can thank God that twenty years from now when you're sitting by the fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you what you did in the war, you won't have to shift him to the other knee, cough and say, 'I shovelled **** in Louisiana.'"
-General George S. Patton addressing his troops before D-Day landings June 1944

	26-05-2000 04:31									#10
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Make the German version first. I probably won't play at all if I can only be the Commies. (thats the only thing that was wrong with Red Front)

	26-05-2000 05:41									#11
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Actually I would concentrate on a German version only. The battle wasn't that challenging for the Russians seeing as they knew months in advance and had set up anti-tank traps, mines, fortifications, thousands of pieces of artillery, many many anti-tank guns.

It really was a maul for the Germans and best luck to your effort but I don't see how this will be anthing but a maul or a pushover.

	26-05-2000 06:35									#12
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It would be just big clashes and if you clash in the right place, at the right time, with the right stuff, you'll succeed. You'd have to wear out the Russians and be able to concentrate on puching through a section of the line while over 1 million strong of the Red Army are waiting for you. Yes, it would be a maul, but you have to act it out swift and intelligently.

------------------
"There's one more thing you men can say when it's all over and you're home once more. You can thank God that twenty years from now when you're sitting by the fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you what you did in the war, you won't have to shift him to the other knee, cough and say, 'I shovelled **** in Louisiana.'"
-General George S. Patton addressing his troops before D-Day landings June 1944

	26-05-2000 18:25									#13
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I have made this suggestion earlier but maybe this would be a good scenario to implement it on. TWO DESIGNERS. Same map, pretty much the same units and each creating the game from the opposite side, trying to design AI tactics that are as tough to defeat as possible. Then swap games and see if you can defeat the other designers AI. You get two good scenarios from one set of units and one map.

The challenge from the Soviet side would be that the German units are much tougher than your units, especially the Tiger I tanks that pretty much are invulnerable to your T-34s and the very experienced troops that you are up against (Both Rudel and Wittman fought at Kursk, as well as most of the other German aces)

From the German side it's easier, you are outnumbered 4 to 1!