22-09-2003 09:48									#1
	Which part of murder is immoral? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Which part of murder is immoral? Is it ruining the lives of the people close to that person? Is it cutting someone's life shorter then they wanted it to be? And, why is it morally OK to kill a non-human but it's bad to kill a human?

These may seem like stupid questions, but first off we never really question things like that. Murder is always thought of as bad, and chances are you've never even asked yourself why. I agree that it is bad, but what I'm getting to is about abortion. If the only immoral part of murder is that you are hurting the victim's family, friends, etc. then abortion wouldn't be wrong if the mother wanted it. The fetus wouldn't know anyone. And, if the bad part of murder was cutting someone's life short, well then abortion might be OK because a fetus is probably to young to not want to die. And what divides the line between killing another organism and killing a human could really affect whether abortion is moral or not. What makes another organism different then a human? Is it that humans are conscience of themselves and their surroundings? Is it that they have learned to make their own decisions and everything they do is not just an instinctive reaction? Because if those are what separates humans and other organisms, it wouldn't be wrong to kill a fetus I believe. I don't think fetuses are conscience of themselves and their surroindings, and I don't think they can make choices outside of instintive reactions.

Just some food for thought.

	22-09-2003 09:58									#2
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quote: well then abortion might be OK because a fetus is probably to young to not want to die.

No dice. How would you know the desires of the unborn child?

quote: If the only immoral part of murder is that you are hurting the victim's family, friends, etc.

Just the wantedness argument from a different tack. Should popularity determine a person's worth? No. Just as we do not kill the homeless because no one wants them, neither should we kill the unborn child because his mother did not want him.

Secondly, your argument does not say why the mother gets to choose? What if the father wanted the child, would he not get a say?

quote: I don't think fetuses are conscience of themselves and their surroindings, and I don't think they can make choices outside of instintive reactions.

Just because someone does not know you have robbed them, that does not justify your actions. The same works for murder. Suppose you were under anaestetia? You would no longer be conscious of your surroundings. Does this make it right for me to kill you?

	22-09-2003 10:27									#3
	Re: Which part of murder is immoral? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod And, if the bad part of murder was cutting someone's life short, well then abortion might be OK because a fetus is probably to young to not want to die.

A three year old wouldn't object to being castrated if you gave him new toys in exchange. Doesn't mean you're being fair to him.

	22-09-2003 10:30									#4
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BTW, this is a very thoughtful thread. I congratulate you.

	22-09-2003 12:27									#5
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Brings me to a related Topic:
Why is Murder a Crime, which should be punished, if it is done by Civilians,
but as soon as it involves Soldiers and War, murder is justified most of the times (and will sometimes even be rewarded with Medals).
(If the people kiled are enemy Soldiers of course )

Last edited by Proteus_MST on 22-09-2003 at 12:33

	22-09-2003 12:29									#6
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Murder is immoral because:

1) The act takes what does not belong to the taker
2) The act takes what was given to the victim by the creator
3) The act is hypocritical

	22-09-2003 12:41									#7
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Murder is immoral because it causes harm to the victim.

	22-09-2003 12:56									#8
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quote: Which part of murder is immoral?

The "killing" part

quote: Is it ruining the lives of the people close to that person?Is it cutting someone's life shorter then they wanted it to be? And, why is it morally OK to kill a non-human but it's bad to kill a human?

a) It is not ruining their lives, but it is causing distress.
b) It is cutting their life shorted than they expected it to be, and it is
c) It is farm-animals purpose to be slaughtered for food. It has been they main stay of human food for millenia, and they are below us in the food chain, thus nature is dictating they should be eaten by those higher. If you are talking about ritual sheep killing, then I don't know

quote: I agree that it is bad, but what I'm getting to is about abortion. If the only immoral part of murder is that you are hurting the victim's family, friends, etc. then abortion wouldn't be wrong if the mother wanted it. The fetus wouldn't know anyone.

When the foetus is concious, he is a living person. Merriam-Webster defines murder as the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought. Unlawfully killing dictates that the law forbids it, which, in most countries, it does not. "Killing a person" is open to interpretation. What is a person? "one that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties" Now... it depends whether or not foeti are recognised by law. This is causing great debate in NZ at the moment. I think US law says that after 20 weeks, the foetus is concious, thus is recognised by law. So, if the baby is aborted before 20 weeks, s/he is not "murdered". Now, the last part "with malicious aforethought". I'm pretty sure the baby is not being mutilated or killed by the mother because she wants it to die. It is because the mother does not want the foetus to come into life living a most miserable one due the the fact his/her parent(s) can't afford to have her. Thus, abortion within 20 weeks of pregnancy is not murder

	22-09-2003 13:13									#9
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Murder is wrong because you kill an innocent.

	22-09-2003 13:41									#10
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Murder's not immoral.

Murder's outlawed in most religions, societies because the society is more successful if people don't need to defend themselves (and their property) from people within their own community. That doesn't apply to abortion.

That's also why execution is often allowed in countries where murder is considered 'immoral'. Because it's a state punishment which is seen to protect the society.

	22-09-2003 17:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Murder is wrong because you kill an innocent.

So does this mean if they are not an innocent then it is not immoral to kill them? Say, if they were guilty of 1st degree murder, killing them would not be immoral?

	22-09-2003 17:20									#12
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murder is moral. indeed, it is a critical duty of every human being to go out and kill his fellow man today. the sooner we do that, the sooner our species will go extinct, and the sooner that happens, the better off earth will be. altruism in its ultimate form.

	22-09-2003 17:21									#13
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I think you're probably right on this occasion, Mike.

	22-09-2003 17:26									#14
	Which part of murder is immoral? Got spare money?

the cutting up and eating their body parts part

wait, not everyone does that?! oops!

	22-09-2003 19:21									#15
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murder is immoral when a single individual or a small groups do it in their own interest

if a big nation or religious power is behind the actions it is very moral then all of a sudden. Actually it becomes a "need" to do so. We need to go there and kill them. We need to destroy their "will to fight". Need to fly planes into buildings, need to send troops before/or else/to show them blabla

	22-09-2003 19:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Murder is wrong because you kill an innocent.

Then let he who is without sin be the executioner.

	22-09-2003 19:35									#17
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But if he executes someone he's no longer without sin.

	22-09-2003 19:39									#18
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Sorry, I forgot to wear my sarcasm sign around my neck for that post.
Rather handily, the sign is reversible and has "Will tap dance for food" in large letters on the reverse.

	22-09-2003 19:55									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH But if he executes someone he's no longer without sin.

But he was without sin before. And he become sinful after killing the person. The problem is the period while killing him. In modern days thats a fracture of a second but in the past that could have taken a bit longer and the victim was first hurt before it died. So the shorter the time the victim gets hurt the more morale and justified it is. Great
That way any person that is without sin can execute any other person if the other person is dead immediately and does not feel pain because bringing pain to someone would be a sin I guess.
Of course the sinless person would be sinful afterwards but it was all morale during the killing.

We would only become problems if the intention to kill is sinful aswell, then he would do it very spontaneous without intention. But then its not murder anymore but manslaughter.

ata

	22-09-2003 19:57									#20
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Which is, of course, all right.

	22-09-2003 22:49									#21
	Re: Which part of murder is immoral? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Which part of murder is immoral?

Obviously the "mur". "der" is a perfectly moral article in German language.

	22-09-2003 22:54									#22
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what is unethical in murder? it depends on the sircumstances, but generally:

-the fact that pain is caused to the person while murdering him.
-the fact that he won't enjoy the rest of his life.
-the fact that society won't enjoy his positive contribution.

there are more, but these are probably the more obvious ones.

	22-09-2003 22:57									#23
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Killing without consent (i.e. euthenasia) or not required to defend the lives of other (i.e. war) is wrong. Murder (illegal killing) isn't necessarily wrong.

	22-09-2003 23:26									#24
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quote: -the fact that pain is caused to the person while murdering him.

Its possibel to kill someone without suffering any (or very little) pain.

quote: -the fact that he won't enjoy the rest of his life.

So is it more immoral to kill an teenager than an old man? The Old man would have died anyways in a few years, while the teenager had still his whole life left.

quote: -the fact that society won't enjoy his positive contribution.

So what if there is not much positive contribution coming from that person. If I kill for example a homeless person that wouldn`t be such a big deal would it?

	22-09-2003 23:30									#25
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on the first paragraph: that's why I've said "generally".
on the second paragraph: generally, yes.
on the third paragraph: yes, again.

as I've said, there are many other factors that are involved here, I've mentioned just a few. factors like cruelty, obsession with power, the impact of the murder on society, the fact that it was forced, etc. etc.

	22-09-2003 23:32									#26
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The ruining life part.

So I guess thatimplies that im lenient on euthanasia. I am.

	22-09-2003 23:42									#27
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@az
Hm, if you spin it some more. Killing someone you know does only bad to society and probably wont change, is a good thing. For example execution of all career criminals would be an idea (new 3 strike-law anyone... ).

	22-09-2003 23:53									#28
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The immoral part of murder is the unlawfull taking of anther person life. That is what is immoral about it. Just murder may or may not effect other people, but it does not change the fact that it is wrong and one of the worst crimes a humman can commit.

As for unborn, no one really knows the level of understanding and fetus has. Every living thing has a natural desire to conitnue to live, to fight to survive. So many people talk about the rights of a mother but what about the fetus?

	22-09-2003 23:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH society is more successful if people don't need to defend themselves (and their property) from people within their own community.

In some systems of thought this is pretty much what immoral means.

	23-09-2003 00:29									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Just murder may or may not effect other people,

Try to kill someone without affecting the victim. But please mind to choose someone else, not me.