 |
|
Snotty
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Proteus_MST
that for example before a court, it is the responsibility of the court, to make clear that a foreign immigrant before the court understands everything which is spoken.
It also involves, that the court has to provide translators, who translate everything which is said in the court.
|
This seems to be common sense to me. It is much easier for the court to find a translator than it is for the imigrant. You cant try people for crimes when they dont understand what you are saying. Its just wrong.
I understand how this system could be open to abuse, but surely you must have some kind of qualification for the translators so you know they can speak the language needed.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Snotty
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
consonantal |
Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of sounds are these?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Verres
Hmmm...I personally find it very embarrasing that we (meaning Britain and the US) expect - or rather insist that - everyone speaks english all the time. I know it might be a bit isolating in a workplace if your colleagues are all gabbling away in a language you dont understand...and yeah, you do tend to assume they are talking about you (God, why are we humans so self-obsessed??) but I hate the way they are forced to struggle to speak English all the time in certain jobs, even though most of their colleagues may also speak a different language.
This happened at my school. There were a lot of Indian and Chinese girls and, although they spoke perfect english, they tended to stick together; and the staff always made sure they never spoke their native tongue at school. They got into big trouble if they were caught speaking to each other in any language other than english.
This was horrible. I dont want foreign workers in my country to feel I am some bigoted idiot who is forcing them to speak my language just because I cant be bothered to learn a few basic phrases in theirs. Obviously, when it comes to taking instructions from the boss etc, they should use whichever language is dominent in the country they are in - but around colleagues, I dont see the harm in letting them speak whatever language they feel most comfortabloe with.
If you have a problem with it, try learning a bit of their language. Communication is a two way thing, y'know. |
that is not like US at all
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Zero
|
 |
Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Snotty
Excuse my ignorance, but what kind of sounds are these? |
I think Q-cubed meant
Japanese: (const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(c
onst),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(con
st),(vowel),(const),(vowel),(const),(vowel),
with very few exception of (const),(vowel),(const),(const)
Korean: Much less Vowel,const alteration. "Like" english.
Chinese is easy to tell apart. You hear all three and you'll know.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Proteus_MST
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Verres
That is pretty bad, actually (the case being counted as a procedural failure if the immigrant claims stuff wasnt translated properly). Although having said that, if you get tried in a foriegn country, cant you arrange for your embassey to do translations and stuff? If I was tried for drug smuggling in Mexico or something (a purely hypothetical situation  ) then I would be entirely dependant on a translator to make sure I understood the case properly...
But I suppose it is different if you are actually living in that country; then it should be up to the individual to make sure they understand what is gong on - they have chosen to live in the place so should make sure they are familiar enough with the language to cope with legal processes. It's a bit different if you are just visiting though. |
Yep, that΄s IMHO the really bad part.
There΄s no problem, if it is just some foreigner, who is living for a short time here in Germany, after which he returns home, or if he is just immirated and therefore of course doesn΄t have extensive knowledge of the german language.
But what really pisses me off are immigrants who live for years here in Germany and not even try to learn the german language.
After all there are sponsored German Courses for immigrants, so they don΄t have to pay anything to learn at least the bsic principles of our language.
Maybe the bst thing would be something between how it is handled now in germany and the amrican system.
For example, if Foreigners lived less than 5 years in Germany, it is the rsponsibility of the cout, to provide ranslators and make sure, the people undersand everything.
But if people lived for more than 5 years here in Germany, they have to make sure for themselves, that they understand everything and it is their failure, if they don΄t do so.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Q Cubed
|
 |
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:31
|
|
quote:
Exception of mal with go, you have both language sounding basically the same. |
 of course. until recently, chinese, korean, and japanese all had similar sounding names for the days of the week. then china turned red, and that changed. korean and japanese still use the same traditional characters, though. for instance, friday is "keum.yo.il" in korean, and "kin.yo.bi" in japanese; saturday is "to.yo.il" (k), "to.yo.bi" (j). it extends to other things, like teacher: "sun.saeng" (k), "sen.sei" (j), university: "dae.hak.kyo" (k), "dai.gak.ku" (j), promise: "yak.sok" (k), "ya.ku.so.ku" (j).
most of these words are the ones that were borrowed from china and assimilated into both languages.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Snotty
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Proteus_MST
For example, if Foreigners lived less than 5 years in Germany, it is the rsponsibility of the cout, to provide ranslators and make sure, the people undersand everything.
But if people lived for more than 5 years here in Germany, they have to make sure for themselves, that they understand everything and it is their failure, if they don΄t do so. |
No, no, no. If I was being tried in court in a language other than my native language they MUST provide translation. Even with 5 years education you would be discriminating against people who have not perfected the language. And court is a place you should understand every word that is said. Translation is much easier for the court to provide than it is for the defendant to organize it.
Again, I am sure you are sore because your system is being abused, but removing translation is not the way to fix it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Snotty
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
of course. until recently, chinese, korean, and japanese all had similar sounding names for the days of the week. then china turned red, and that changed. |
Sorry to keep picking your brain on this Q cubed, but do you know how much the chinese language changed after the revolution? Is it confined to day names (months maybe?) or is it more widespread?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Q Cubed
|
|
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:31
|
|
quote:
Q-cubed you forgot the best ex:
Setakki - Setakki
(laundry machine) |
even though there are vocabulary similarities, don't make the mistake of connecting korean and japanese to chinese; chinese is tonal, the other two are not (tone does matter a fraction in tokyo ben japanese, and in certain dialects in north eastern korea, but it's nowhere near as complex a tonal system as chinese). chinese is subject verb object, while korean and japanese are subject object verb.
now, there's flimsy evidence linking korean and japanese to other languages, the current one in vogue being the ural-altaic group (turkish, finnish, magyar), but that's tenuous at best. japanese and korean also are flimsily linked: some of the basic words that would show genetic linkage are different: dad: "ah.bu.ji" (k), "chi.chi"; i: "na" (k), "wa.ta.shi" (j).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Proteus_MST
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Snotty
No, no, no. If I was being tried in court in a language other than my native language they MUST provide translation. Even with 5 years education you would be discriminating against people who have not perfected the language. And court is a place you should understand every word that is said. Translation is much easier for the court to provide than it is for the defendant to organize it.
Again, I am sure you are sore because your system is being abused, but removing translation is not the way to fix it. |
Yep, that΄s the problem, that it΄s getting misused.
It is very costly for the State to repeat a trial and the capacity of the courts is very much overstrained, which leads to other trials getting delayed, just because some trial has to be repeated.
As for foreigners not understanding everything even after 5 years:
Dunno. You have to know one thing. In german courts it is mandatory to have a lawyer. If people are too poor to afford a lawyer the State pays for one, so noone has to stand alone before the trial and defend himself, without having assistance by someone who has knowledge of the german laws (although he may voluntarily do so  ).
(another difference to for example the amrican court system is, that there is no jury of Civilians, which has to decie if the person is guilty or not, but it is the judge himself and his associate judges, who decide about the case)
So, even if a foreigner after 5 years may not be able to master the german language perfectly, I think that, with the help of his Lawyer he may be able to avoid all pitfalls which someone without knowledge of the german language may step into.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Snotty
|
|
As long as the lawyer can speak and clearly understand the immigrants language then I dont see a problem with it, and it would probably be the better solution than bogus retrials.
What measures are the courts considering to stop this misuse of translators?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Proteus_MST
|
|
AFAIK it is difficult.
If the Immigrant claims that he didn΄t understand something correctly for example because the translator mistranslated it,
it is the duty of the court, to prove, that the immigrant makes a false claim.
If the court isn΄t able to do so, it is very probable that there is a retrial.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
Χαλάρωσε Japher, μην τα παίρνεις τόσο άγρια.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
flipside
|
|
for Sean Marcelo
Jun 2003
time: 05:31
|
|
I work in a multi-lingual workplace and can say this.
If you are patient, respect their accent, culture and beliefs and are capable of saying the basics of the language ( i.e are you o.k, I would like this, please, thank you) you really will get a better response and work rate than if you expect everything on your own terms.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Curiosity
|
|
:nods: I often have that problem socially, being around groups of people who all speak cantonese or mandarin.
If you're patient and exercise a modicum of charm then eventually people will start switching to english to include you. Once you're on friendly terms with everyone in a smallish group then, when they drop into their language, you can just go 'Oh yes, I so agree!' and, mostly, everyone laughs and starts talking english.
If you can't make them want to talk to you, though, there's not much you can do about it. It may not feel fair to you, but remember, you have the problem, not them.
In the meantime, I'm learning Mandarin. This is lots of fun if you don't tell people about it...
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
23-09-2003 00:41
|