24-09-2003 21:26									#61
	Inflate your Upload Space

mmm...that mask could be used to create a civ2-type unit shield in the civ colour, away from the unit itself. I've always found the ToT health bar civ colour to be too small. Scratch that - you could just include a Nemo-type flag with each frame.

I'm thinking as I'm typing, here, both of which processes are very slow for me..

	24-09-2003 21:31									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So, Tech and Curt - you up for a bit of sprite creation? Either of you any good with 3D programs, as there are countless aircraft and tank models available which could be used for 5-frame generation.

Another alternative is to steal some of the user-made civ3 animations using flicster and insert the appropriate 5 frames into static sprite. CivFan has the best resources here from what I remember.

Drawing from scratch in 5 views is extremely tricky.

	24-09-2003 21:35									#63
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by fairline One word of caution about the ToT sprites. I've opened 'em all up and there are a different number of frames per slot. This means that unit slots are not interchangeable.

Um... No! You can change units just fine.

In contrast with Civ3, ToT has a very complex and advanced unit animation format.

AFAIK, Civ3 has a fixed amount of frames per unit, right?

ToT can do a lot more, it can reuse frames in multiple locations, it can loop frames, it can fade frames, it can mirror them and it can use any number of frames for the animations. IIRC, the only limitation is that there is a maximum of 256 distinct frames in one file, but since you can reuse/loop/mirror/fade etc. frames that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

In any case, all the information is held within the sprite files, so anything will work just fine.

BTW, Animation Shop (PSP) can open the Civ3 FLC files as well.

... The only problem is... CivSprite can't handle all these advanced animation options yet.

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Mercator (bless his socks!)

*kisses his socks*

	24-09-2003 21:44									#64
	Inflate your Upload Space

So I can use a 149-frame musketeer unit in a slot previously occupied by a 101-frame tank, if I understand you correctly?

Following through here, presumably if I edit a 150-frame sprite, I must use all 150 frames and use them in the same way (angle of view etc) as the original ToT unit, if the sprite animation info is contained in the file? Or can I just use any number of frames up to 256 and any views I want?

	25-09-2003 03:34									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I do not understand all of your discussion...
I'm not sure what are sprites and frames.
SORRY
But please, explain. Just show me it on a drawing.I know civ reality, but don't know its english names...

quote: I have been strugling for the past few hours to make the AI behave in a decent offensive way and i've failed.

Is it grassland they are created on?
Attach the savegame with events.

quote: Jasev, ToT has 96k, as Catfish says. This is 3 times the memory which MGE allocates to events. But it's even more efficient, because you can create as many units as you want (up to 255) in a single event, in multiple locations.

WHAT? And I lost my ToT before I could try it out!
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

quote: There is no point in my wasting all those weeks of my life making a scenario that no-one will ever see.

Soon, civ2 people will die out and no-one will remember any scenarios anyway
Always look on the bright side...

quote: No, I agree with you, but I believe ToT could prolong the life of Civ2, providing anyone actually got behind it. I know what these people are like - I was one of them.

What are they like?

quote: Good! And yes. Too bad, there's no getting around that one.

What do I need a bigger map for, when I can't fill it with cities?
I have pains even with my latest FW map. Even though it's halfly desert, and quaterly ocean,
it reached maximum of cities... It's not right!

quote: Now before everyone says "There's no damn way I'm gonna draw 8 views of the same unit!", let me remind you that there are lots of Civ3 units that have been made from which these views can be extracted. And they include many current fave's like the Me-262, the King Tiger, and the battleship Yamato. I think the next big frontier for unit graphics may be the 8-view ToT sprite.

Still, making new units takes enough long time (OK, sometimes several minutes, but sometimes several days) when You have to make 1 view. And in the resources, rarely I have a full view, not too mention from the all sides... I'd have to come back to Fading Lights half-fantasy units...

quote: Even if this never happens, and I doubt if anyone wil take up this particular challenge

I doubt somebody could make a decent TOT scenario on his own, judging from your stories.
That would take years. Even making a decent FW scenario takes a year. So I suggest people should team up. But it always ends up badly. I was supposed to make a common scenario with
hm 1... 2... 3... people, and nothing worked out of any of those plans. It's because they are traitors. Or because I am annoying. But still...

	25-09-2003 04:08									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mercator *kisses his socks*

Eeeww!

	25-09-2003 04:22									#67
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Heresson What are they like?

I explain my comment in the next 4 paragraphs of the same post.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson What do I need a bigger map for, when I can't fill it with cities?

The maps are the same size as MGE. There is the possibility of having up to 4 maps (with restrictions). However, there's nothing to say you have to use this feature. The option is there if you want it.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Still, making new units takes enough long time (OK, sometimes several minutes, but sometimes several days) when You have to make 1 view. And in the resources, rarely I have a full view, not too mention from the all sides... I'd have to come back to Fading Lights half-fantasy units... I doubt somebody could make a decent TOT scenario on his own, judging from your stories.

Aargh! Curt, you've gone and scared everyone off with this talk of sprites. Heresson, you don't have to use sprites. You can use your old units if you like. People have been making ToT scenarios for years and to date, no-one has made their own sprites to my knowledge.

ToT does, however, allow you to use 24-bit graphics, so you're not restricted to the Civ2 palette. You can achieve much better looking graphics - and it's not out of everyone's league.

I’ll quote myself from earlier:

quote: Originally posted by Catfish Really, it's only as complicated as you want to make it. New designers could forgo the advanced options, but still take advantage of, say, the graphics and extra units. They can then introduce themselves to the other stuff at a later date. .

	25-09-2003 04:38									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Mercator, it sounds like the ToT sprite is quite advanced. This is a bit of a surprise to me. Can you explain how those features work? Any chance you're going to work on a CivSprite upgrade?

As for the 10 view Static Spr. (SS), I'm game for some joint experimentation. Since all units are contained in one sprite, it might make sense to work on modifying a SS for a specific scenario. And as much as it pains me to say so, there are probably more WWII Civ3 units to raid for images than any other period. Perhaps we could take an existing WWII scenario and create a SS for it. What do you guys think?

	25-09-2003 06:01									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by fairline So I can use a 149-frame musketeer unit in a slot previously occupied by a 101-frame tank, if I understand you correctly?

Yep...

quote: Following through here, presumably if I edit a 150-frame sprite, I must use all 150 frames and use them in the same way (angle of view etc) as the original ToT unit, if the sprite animation info is contained in the file? Or can I just use any number of frames up to 256 and any views I want?

You can do anything you want.

You can describe the ToT animated unit sprite files as having two parts:
- A collection of up to 256 images.
- 32 animations, 4 actions (idle, move, attack, die) in 8 facing directions. These can be composed of any number (including zero) of images in the collection. Additionally, it can add properties to a frame, such as mirroring it, or fading it (there are 8 levels of transparency, from completely visible through to completely transparent). It can also specify loops (e.g. have a close look at the Whale resource animation in ToT).

You can't control frame rate directly, except by using the same frame multiple times in a row (ToT uses that already for slowing down the "death scenes").


But all of this is really "in principle", because none of this can yet be done by CivSprite.

In your musketeer/tank example, for instance, if you already have both animations, simply renaming the animation file is all that is needed (each unit has its own animation file). If you'd still have to make that tank, you would first have to find a unit that uses the frames exactly like you want them to be used. You can then edit it and give it the correct filename.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson I do not understand all of your discussion... I'm not sure what are sprites and frames.

"sprite" is simply a fancy name for image or icon, and for computer game (animated) graphics in particular.
A "frame" is one image in an animation/movie.

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Mercator, it sounds like the ToT sprite is quite advanced. This is a bit of a surprise to me. Can you explain how those features work? Any chance you're going to work on a CivSprite upgrade?

I was rather surprised myself. I had obviously expected it to be like common animation formats such as GIF (or Civ3's FLC).

I think I can explain it best by referring you to the thread about the sprite format (and see my little description above):
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=61778

The final attachment in particular ("spr format.3.txt"). You can ignore most of the technical gibberish.


And about upgrading CivSprite... ahem... That's gonna be difficult. Subliminal had also shown interest in making a full sprite editor, but communication has been um... slightly less than optimal, so I don't know if he ever even started.

It will take months at least.

	25-09-2003 06:09									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am not intimidated by the concept of creat 5-view versions of units...It might be rather cool!

One thing, how is combat effects handled?
If a rifleman is in combat, for instance, how is that displayed?

Is it even possible?

I think we should have a go at some spritemaking, perhaps a ToT unit workshop thread?

	25-09-2003 06:56									#71
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I think we should have a go at some spritemaking, perhaps a ToT unit workshop thread?

Done - although, not specifically for ToT.

	25-09-2003 08:26									#72
	Suffering from ads?

Merc - how about this? If the ToT format is more sophisticated, has more frames, and is more flexible than the Civ3 format, then does it follow that Civ3 sprites could be somehow converted directly into the ToT format ?

If so, a Civ3 -> ToT sprite converter might be quite a bit simpler to design and it would have the advantage of allowing us to immediately access all the work already done by our Civ3 bretheren. What do you think?

	25-09-2003 10:35									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Here's a set of 10 frames converted to ToT for a (somewhat crude) Civ3 Panther tank I found on the CivFan forums. I used 75% size reduction, colorization and Catfish's texture technique in the conversion process. It's not totally elegant, but it gives an idea of what we can readily produce from some of the Civ3 unit art that's out there.

Attachment: pantheranim.png
This has been downloaded 39 time(s).

	25-09-2003 11:42									#74
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I am not intimidated by the concept of creat 5-view versions of units...It might be rather cool! One thing, how is combat effects handled? If a rifleman is in combat, for instance, how is that displayed? Is it even possible? I think we should have a go at some spritemaking, perhaps a ToT unit workshop thread?

Mercator will probably correct this but its my understanding that if you use the reduced frame static sprite you effectively have a view for each direction you move the unit - the combat view will be identical to the movement view. I would imagine that the full-on 100+ frame jobs can have their own combat animations; IIRC the stock MPS sprites fidget when they don't move, and have attack and death sequences. Been a while since I used 'em.

Despite my earlier comment, WW2 is the obvious choice for this venture, if we decide we're going to do it. Firstly, as Tech says, there are dozens of WW2 civ3 tanks available (some of which are astoundingly good, while others are just rips of other games like Panzer General 2). Secondly, and I guess most importantly, the idea here is to attract an audience for ToT. You only have to look at the relative number of views and posts on the ww2 graphic thread and the number of new ww2 scenarios to see that this topic would draw a crowd...

As for scenarios, 2194 is an obvious if hackneyed one, or how about Dictator 3 Curt . I always fancied doing either Arnhem or the North Africa campaign as scenarios, but I guess a conversion of an existing one would be a far more practical proposition.

	25-09-2003 15:17									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yeah! Just do it global!
I would prefer a Dictator 3!

PS: Check your PM, Curt!

Last edited by Cifer Almasy on 25-09-2003 at 15:23

	25-09-2003 15:37									#76
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My plan was to firstly create a Dictator v3 for MGE.
This would be more of a heavy update than a full scen.

Then looking at the events of the last few days, I am feeling more and more excited by the prospect of a major ToT scenario team effort !

I was definitely into doing a ToT 'Test of Dictator' scenario...But I am seriouslt into doing multiviews for animations.

It matters not how long the developments takes, the fact that this project will attract attention to ToT, adn CIV2 in general is the big aspect...

CIV3 lacks events and real scenario support.
We could best CIV3 and create perhaps the definitive CIV experince!

I say we make a choice on what era to make this for...
WW2 is the favourite, but we should be unified in our idea.

A poll on the subject perhaps?

	25-09-2003 15:38									#77
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Also, with a global WW2 ToT scenario, we could spawn any manner of tactical scenarios from it, using the same units...

Or do we have to create new ones for each scen?

	25-09-2003 18:19									#78
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Merc - how about this? If the ToT format is more sophisticated, has more frames, and is more flexible than the Civ3 format, then does it follow that Civ3 sprites could be somehow converted directly into the ToT format ?

Nope. As you probably noticed with the Panther conversion you did, Civ3 graphics are larger. I don't think it's really possible to automate any cropping/resizing involved.

But using Animation Shop, PSP and its scripts and batch renaming could alleviate the job.

quote: Originally posted by fairline Mercator will probably correct this but its my understanding that if you use the reduced frame static sprite you effectively have a view for each direction you move the unit - the combat view will be identical to the movement view.

Exactly. If you only use the 5-view static sprite, units will be exactly that: static.

Note that you can just as easily make the different views look completely different. Since you can also control facing direction in civ2, this can be helpful for "terrain units".

E.g. If you'd convert Favoured Flight's ROTK scenario to ToT, you could reduce 5 different mountain units to 5 different facing directions of one and the same unit. That will open up some more unit slots, so you can have even more units. This only works with units that can't be attacked, though, or the mountains would change when facing an attacker.

quote: I would imagine that the full-on 100+ frame jobs can have their own combat animations; IIRC the stock MPS sprites fidget when they don't move, and have attack and death sequences. Been a while since I used 'em.

Yep, units have 4 different animations: idle, move, attack and die.

But only the active unit uses the animations, the other units always use the static sprite (or bitmap image). The only exception to this rule is units dying.

	25-09-2003 19:35									#79
	Got spare money?

quote: I explain my comment in the next 4 paragraphs of the same post.

Ups.

quote: The maps are the same size as MGE.

But I do not have MGE. Are MGE maps bigger than FW?

quote: There is the possibility of having up to 4 maps (with restrictions).

You mean, 4 maps in one game?
mmmm?

quote: so you're not restricted to the Civ2 palette.

That's a big plus. Civ2 palette can be really annoying.
By the way, Have I ever mentioned (surely, but on a forum?) that I noticed one specific colour (kind of greyish blue) changes when used in a city icon of a city that revolts? It becomes much more vivid. I think. It is a long time since I've noticed it.

quote: "sprite" is simply a fancy name for image or icon, and for computer game (animated) graphics in particular. A "frame" is one image in an animation/movie.

Thank You

	25-09-2003 20:12									#80
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Heresson But I do not have MGE. Are MGE maps bigger than FW?

They can be more than 3 times larger... To be precise, the FW max is 10,922, the MGE/ToT max is 32,767.

quote: Thank You

I really should finally e-mail you, shouldn't I? Damn me.

	25-09-2003 21:03									#81
	Support Apolyton

If no one else has a WWII project they would prefer, I could dust off my Global War project. Is anyone interested in that?

	25-09-2003 21:45									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Also, with a global WW2 ToT scenario, we could spawn any manner of tactical scenarios from it, using the same units... Or do we have to create new ones for each scen?

Just thinking aloud here, but how about using Tech's Global War scenario with 5-frame animations that can be subsequently used for Dictator 3, or, if you really want to go for it Curt, use the 100-framers for Dictator.

From what Mercator says above I was incorrect when I said the 100+ frame animations are unique to a slot - they are in fact fully interchangeable. Naturally the 10-frame Static sprites are also interchangeable with each other.

From a personal point of view I would prefer having a bash at a scenario conversion, or a scenario thats part-finished and use the 10-framers. Perhaps the ultimate goal if that is successful would be to tackle some of the multi-frame graphics for Dictator 3. What do you guys think? Are we all up for this?

	26-09-2003 04:01									#83
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Mercator They can be more than 3 times larger... To be precise, the FW max is 10,922, the MGE/ToT max is 32,767. quote: Thank You I really should finally e-mail you, shouldn't I? Damn me.

Right. But I can't open my mailbox since a wekek and won't be able to do that for several more days, so there's nothing to it.

	26-09-2003 04:12									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Amazing!

I found at last what was the trouble with fortify bug!

It is seemingly an AI strategy glitch.The AI civ in question(Romans) simply had too many cities and too few units.So the AI "instictively" took a defensive stance and fortified everything that could be fortified-including cavalry and catapults.After all its cities had garissons hell was unleashed-it throwed everything it had at me and i was supposed to be on the offensive!

Cool stuff!

P.S It is a strange feeling to be out of subject in your own thread, isn't it?

	26-09-2003 04:52									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yeah, you thread re-jacker!

	26-09-2003 06:58									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A Flying Fort:

Attachment: b-17.png
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).

	26-09-2003 14:39									#87
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Interesting