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G'Kar
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St. Louis, USA
Aug 2003
time: 23:31
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quote:
Berlin Wall (or Iron Curtain)
The Manhatten Project must have been built before this wonder becomes available.
*it prevents all players from winning a diplomatic or cultural victory for 50 turns after it is built
*your cities are immune from cultural conversion
it becomes obsolete if you switch governments
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I like the idea. But I don't think it should become obsolete if you switch gov'ts. The reality in parts of the East was that the gov't could do whatever it wanted and there was little the populace could do about it.
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G'Kar
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St. Louis, USA
Aug 2003
time: 23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Even with the modified version, I'm not sure this is historically correct. Both Hungary and the Czech Republic flipped during the cold war, only they were retaken by military force.
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Yes, but (unfortunately) there is no corollary between the relationship of Hungary & Czech Rep and the USSR and relations that are possible in Civ. Those countries were truly subservient. In Civ, even when you've beaten down a neighbor and you think you've vassalized them they're still free to do whatever they want, including declare war on you.
I wish we had something similar to the Pact of Brotherhood to Serve from SMAC. With that, civs could be independent but subservient.
Given that we're talking about part of a nation's own territory flipping, I think the Berlin Wall should stop it. After all, we know that Vladivostok could never have flipped to Japan in real life.
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G'Kar
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St. Louis, USA
Aug 2003
time: 23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
Disney Land - small wonder
- doubles your tourism income all across your empire
- prerequisites: it should be a late industrial tech, IMHO. So maybe The Corporation or Electronics? Or even Motorized Transportation (cars->more tourists) ?
Now, with only 2 or 3 obsolate wonders generating tourism gold I don't know whether this wonder would be worth building; however, if they extended the tourism formula (with certain luxuries - ivory, wine, exotic birds, volcanoes generating tourism gold and some city improvements- airport boosting it) it would make sense. |
Are we sure that tourism is only related to obsolete wonders? If so Disney Land should probably have a happiness component for the city it's built in.
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Defcon5
Yes, but (unfortunately) there is no corollary between the relationship of Hungary & Czech Rep and the USSR and relations that are possible in Civ. Those countries were truly subservient. In Civ, even when you've beaten down a neighbor and you think you've vassalized them they're still free to do whatever they want, including declare war on you.
Given that we're talking about part of a nation's own territory flipping, I think the Berlin Wall should stop it. After all, we know that Vladivostok could never have flipped to Japan in real life. |
It depends how do you look at the civs. A civ3 civilization is not necessarry a country (as you obviously see it), it is more like a nation, or something even wider, a cultural group. We obviously can't play civ with hundreds of civs, so civilizations are just as abstract as everything else in this game.
So when Hungary and the Czech Republic flipped, they flipped from the Sovjet "civ" to the Western European "civ", where they historically and culturally belong.
The easiest thing one can do to understand this is to imagine a European cold-war scenario (civ3 scenario): Hungary and the Czech Republic would be in fact two cities, Budapest and Prague, flipping to Germany and then being (re)occuppied by the USSR.
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G'Kar
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St. Louis, USA
Aug 2003
time: 23:31
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from the chat:
quote:
Chieftess> can u explain how tourism works?
After 1000 years some Wonders start to produce an extra 2 commerce, it increases with time
Its only for Wonders that could be a Tourist attraction...for instance the Pyramids qualifies, but no tourists ever "visit" the Theory of Evolution
Tourist Attrations increase commerce to the city, this commerce increases the longer the wonder is around. |
So I guess this means that wonders that could conceivably "attract" people to them become tourist attractions. But I'm not sure if this means all such wonders or just some.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
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quote:
It depends how do you look at the civs. A civ3 civilization is not necessarry a country (as you obviously see it), it is more like a nation, or something even wider, a cultural group. We obviously can't play civ with hundreds of civs, so civilizations are just as abstract as everything else in this game.
So when Hungary and the Czech Republic flipped, they flipped from the Sovjet "civ" to the Western European "civ", where they historically and culturally belong.
The easiest thing one can do to understand this is to imagine a European cold-war scenario (civ3 scenario): Hungary and the Czech Republic would be in fact two cities, Budapest and Prague, flipping to Germany and then being (re)occuppied by the USSR |
Tiberius, while I agree with just about everything you had to say, I disagree that Hungary and the Czech Republic flipped back to germany...
I think they rioted and went into civil disorder because of happiness, and the Soviets had to bring in military police to calm them down, but they didn't flip
As far as cultural flips go, the only things I can think of are the following
*China after being invaded many times sinocized the invades
*In england during the end of the roman period the peopled melted back into the general population
*The Mexicans breaking away from Spanish rule
*When texas broke away from Mexico because of an influx of American settlers
*To some extent the South Eastern US with the large number of illegal immigrants, and possibly Israel in the future because of the much higher Arab birthrate
hmmm but some of it gets more into civil wars and rebelions rather than cultural conquests, in any event though, I think this was two cities falling into disorder rather than flipping
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Tiberius
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Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:31
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Korn, it wasn't just civil disorder. I'm not very sure about the Czechs, but in Hungary the events of 1956 were much more than just a rebellion.
It all started in 1953, with the end of the stalinist era. In 1953, Nagy -- the new prime minister-- was ready to liberalize the communist system, to reform it. In 1955, political orthodoxy seemed to take hold again and Rakosi and his stalinist comrades ousted Nagy.
However, in october 1956, encouraged by the changes from within the SU itself, students in Budapest marched in a peaceful demonstration. They demanded the withdrawal of Soviet troops, the formation of a multi-party system and the institution of free elections. They were joined by a wide segment of the population. Of course the communists couldn't allow this to happen and the next day fighting broke out all throughout Budapest. To placate the demonstrators Nagy is appointed as Prime Minister the following day. However, fighting continued in Budapest and spread throughout Hungary.
The revolution began.
(you can call these events as beeing the "civil disorder" part)
Nagy, suddently been thrust into the leadership role again, failed to connect at first with the crowds and seemed himself to be on the verge of being swept aside by popular currents. But over the course of the next week, Nagy apparently underwent a remarkable transformation, from a more or less dutiful pro-Moscow Communist to a politician willing to sanction unprecedented political, economic and social reform, including the establishment of a multi-party state in Hungary, and insistent on the withdrawal of all Soviet forces from the country.
On October 30, Nagy called for the formation of a new democratic, multiparty system. Noncommunist parties that had been suppressed almost a decade before began to reorganize. A coalition government emerged. After negotiations, Soviet officials agreed to remove their troops at the discretion of the Hungarian government, and Soviet troops began to leave Budapest.
By November 1, Nagy took the dramatic step of declaring Hungary's rejection of the Warsaw Pact and appealing to the United Nations for help in establishing the country's neutrality. The Western powers, which were involved in the Suez crisis and were not prepared to deal with an Eastern European revolution, did not respond.
The Soviets could not allow this to happen. On November 3, Soviet troops surrounded Budapest and closed the country's borders. Overnight they entered the capital and occupied the National Assembly building. On November 4, the formation of the new government was announced. Nagy had fled to the Yugoslav embassy, and about 200,000 Hungarians had escaped to the West (you will meet many americans whose parents had fled Hungary in 1956). Over the next five years, about 2,000 individuals were executed and about 25,000 imprisoned. In June 1958, the Hungarian government announced that Nagy and other government officials who had played key roles in the revolution had been secretly tried and executed.
The events of 1956 were officially declared "revolution" in 1989, IIRC, and Imre Nagy was reburied as a national hero.
So we have a a country (or a city, Budapest, in civ3 terms) changing government, actually changing its political system (communism -> democracy), announcing the withdrawal from a military pact (again, in civ3 terms, leaving the USSR) and asking its acceptance into a new "civ" (Western Europe); now this is what I'd call a flip, and not a "civil disorder". It was a flip that was both "rejected" by the west (not helped, actually) and suppressed by the SU. If the sovjets hadn't had enough army to send into Hungary, it'd have returned to the western european civilization 40 years earlier.
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23-09-2003 02:45
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