23-09-2003 22:02									#1
	OCC 2003 Comparison Game #2 Remove this text

I was looking for a small island start for another OCC, but saved this start as an interesting possibility. I went back to this one (looks like you are on a decent sized continent) and gave it an bit of a twist: the other civs are as "civilized" as possible, given the default choices.

- Normal 50x80 map, Round
- Small land mass, Archipelago land forms
- Wet climate, Temperate, 3 Billion years
- Deity level
- 7 "civilized" civs
- Barbs at Raging Hordes
- Restarts ON
- NO free techs

You are Montezuma of the Aztecs. OCC is the only way to play the Aztecs: their city names are impossible.


(yes, that is a Gold mountain...)

and the save...
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Elephant/mo_b4000.sav
(this is a 2.42 save)

Normal OCC rules apply: retry Advanced Tribes, all other exploits permitted. See SG's OCC#1 for minimal game summary requirements; game log encouraged.

	24-09-2003 00:39									#2
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And a Silk hidden special.

	24-09-2003 01:07									#3
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Looks like a great location.

"due date" - try for Halloween?

	24-09-2003 08:06									#4
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Oh boy, looks like fun! Last time I had a gold mountain was when I tried the size 1 OCC.

It wasn't pretty...

	24-09-2003 15:25									#5
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My girlfriend is planning to go away to visit her sister sometime next month so I might be able to reinstall Civ 2 and play this particular challenge. Now I've got MGE there shouldn't be any trouble like I had last time.

	25-09-2003 11:10									#6
	Landing 1925 Got spare money?

The good ship Montezuma landed in 1925.

I'm afraid I didn't keep a log since I wasn't expecting to finish - this is the first deity level OCC that I've managed.

However, nothing very exciting happened anyway.

Monarchy. Trade. Collossus. Shakes. Aqueduct. Sanitation. Republic and celebrate to size 21. Copes. Ikes. Darwin. And a smooth switch to Democracy in there somewhere.

The tensest moments were after I launched my "skinny" spaceship - would the Germans beat me with a "fat boy"? Would the English who surrounded me declare war? Actually the German spaceship was launched a couple of years too late and the English never even ended the alliance.

I nearly blew it at the end. After launch I was preparing for war like crazy. I built a para unit so that I could capture an English city if they attacked. It seemed to escape me that the essential feature of an OCC is that you only have OC.

The landing date will be easily beaten - I didn't have enough vans (or cash) so the last half dozen or so spaceship parts took two or three turns. Also I completely forgot to celebrate while I was in Monarchy.

The combination of a great starting position with benign neighbours makes this a very gentle game.

RJM at Sleeper's

Attachment: mo_a1924.sav
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	25-09-2003 11:18									#7
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I'll think I'll give it a try, if I can find the time!

	25-09-2003 13:26									#8
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It's entirely normal to launch the SS and then build a defender each turn after that. Paranoia does set in, I admit, and if you're playing with the white civ then you have the advantage of having first turn which means your SS will beat all others that should land in the same year, but you don't get that with the Aztecs.

	25-09-2003 13:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york It's entirely normal to launch the SS and then build a defender each turn after that. Paranoia does set in, I admit, and if you're playing with the white civ then you have the advantage of having first turn which means your SS will beat all others that should land in the same year, but you don't get that with the Aztecs.

I built a mechanised infantry unit on the 1st post-launch turn. Then city walls, coastal fortress, sam missile battery, barracks, a couple of fighters, more mechanised infantry, paratroops and finally howies and armour. An amphibious landing on the 1st post-launch turn would have killed me, but by 1920 when I was building the offensive units, I was fairly confident I could survive an English attack long enough to land.

RJM at Sleeper's

	25-09-2003 15:05									#10
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I'm fairly sure that the stealth fighter is the preferred defender of choice in Liverpool, but I don't mind as long as I've got enough of them to defend attacks for 8 turns, no-one has the Manhattan Project and I have enough cash to just buy them all outright.
If it ever gets a bit hairy then I'll always have a spy there just incase I fancy buying anything in range, and also to keep an eye out for menacing units. I don't normally bother with a coastal fortress, but SAM is vital if you're surrounded. I don't bother with anything but 100% tax and purchase everything in sight.

	25-09-2003 15:06									#11
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Oh - can someone please provide an MGE save.

	25-09-2003 22:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Oh - can someone please provide an MGE save.

Memory has become squishy but I think this is workable...load the 242 save in MGE. It should play. Good luck

Monk

	25-09-2003 22:36									#13
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Since I'm not due to play in any Successions, I think I'll give this one a go.

	26-09-2003 01:25									#14
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quote: Memory has become squishy but I think this is workable...load the 242 save in MGE. It should play. Good luck

Yeah, I can confirm this. I only have MGE, and I had no problems loading the save.

So go ahead and download. :diotnow!:

	26-09-2003 11:42									#15
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I'm fairly sure that the stealth fighter is the preferred defender of choice in Liverpool, but I don't mind as long as I've got enough of them to defend attacks for 8 turns, no-one has the Manhattan Project and I have enough cash to just buy them all outright. If it ever gets a bit hairy then I'll always have a spy there just incase I fancy buying anything in range, and also to keep an eye out for menacing units. I don't normally bother with a coastal fortress, but SAM is vital if you're surrounded. I don't bother with anything but 100% tax and purchase everything in sight.

I didn't have the option of a stealth fighter - I stopped researching after fusion power and avoided diplomatic contact with the AI in case they took the opportunity to end the alliance. I'm not sure about the diplomat since it can't be used to bribe the AI cities, and their attacking units may well be stacked. However it does provide an additional defender if needed! I potentially needed to defend for 16 turns rather than 8 since my SS was 15-3-3-1-1-1.

RJM at Sleeper's

	26-09-2003 14:51									#16
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I'm not suggesting that you should build a dip or spy, but rather that you have one in your city all the time in case one of the neighbouring civs gets mardy. By bribing one of their units, then you can try to kill as many nearby as you can. This is obviously a last-ditch effort, as you should hopefully never nd up at war with the other civs until the end, but MGE being what it is then you can find yourself in trouble if you make contact and don't have anything to gift them. [muttering about extortionate Carthaginian b*stards from the last game].
I like to use dips to defend when I've got Shakespeare's because they don't have a shield cost and can buy barb horsies to then turn on their former leaders!

	26-09-2003 15:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I'm fairly sure that the stealth fighter is the preferred defender of choice in Liverpool, ...

Yup - that's right!

Stu

	26-09-2003 15:42									#18
	Re: Landing 1925 Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers However, nothing very exciting happened anyway. Monarchy. Trade. Collossus. Shakes. Aqueduct. Sanitation. Republic and celebrate to size 21. Copes. Ikes. Darwin.

Well done RJM. I really like your summary!

We´ll see about the earliest, but you sure had the fastest landing!

I have not much time to play at the moment but I´ll find a weekend for this OCC Thanks for posting it, Elephant.

Zenon

	27-09-2003 04:18									#19
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I might try it. Not only will it be my first OCC Comp. game here, but it'll also be my first serious attempt at Deity level for any Civ2 game...

	27-09-2003 10:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I'm not suggesting that you should build a dip or spy, but rather that you have one in your city all the time in case one of the neighbouring civs gets mardy.

That's a good point. I'm afraid the early landing games have got me into the habit of only building the diplo as the need arises. I should have changed the strategy for OCC.

RJM at Sleeper's

	29-09-2003 13:46									#21
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If you're in the bizarre position of having Writing before Trade then I suppose you could have been using the dip-as-van technique, but if this is the case then something has gone very wrong with your tech path. Maybe you shouldn't have popped all those huts at the start?

I sometimes build a dip if I'm pushed for time to build a wonder, have enough caravans ready to complete it and am just waiting for the tech. The extra turns it would take to build (well, rushbuild) an extra caravan could mean losing out on the wonder.

	30-09-2003 05:37									#22
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In this game I chose Writing as my off-tech, but then traded for CB when I found the Germans, which made Monarchy unavailable. So I took Literacy instead and early Republic, thus getting Writing way before Trade.

	30-09-2003 11:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Maybe you shouldn't have popped all those huts at the start? I sometimes build a dip if I'm pushed for time to build a wonder, have enough caravans ready to complete it and am just waiting for the tech. The extra turns it would take to build (well, rushbuild) an extra caravan could mean losing out on the wonder.

I'm not sure who this comment was addressed to. In my game I didn't pop very many huts. By the time I got a unit passed Berlin, all of the huts in that direction had been popped and I never built a sea going unit.

As far as building a dip while waiting for the tech needed for a wonder is concerned - surely it takes the same number of turns to rush build a dip as it does to rush build a van. It just costs more money.

RJM at Sleeper's

	30-09-2003 14:10									#24
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That depends upon how much you want to spend and how many shields you get per turn.

Sorry about the general comment - it wasn't addressed to anyone I'm afraid.

Can you not mention importatn things like which direction other civs are in please - I have to wait until 10th October before I can get my teeth into this one.

	01-10-2003 08:08									#25
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quote: It seemed to escape me that the essential feature of an OCC is that you only have OC.

Conquering cities after launch is not strictly forbidden, at least the way we did these challenges before.

	08-10-2003 19:10									#26
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4000BC, pop the hut, get a horse. found Mexico, begin researching Alpha (leave the options open for Republic should the off tech make sense…)
3950 switch the citizen from the whale to the gold.
3850 -- discover alpha, on to Code (cit back to whale)
3750 -- cit back to gold.
3550 -- discover code, opt for BW
3400 -- hut = archer.
3100 -- discover BW, opt for CB
2850 -- hut = Map (ARGH -- major delay for Monarchy!) should have waited for the last hut too, but didn’t recognize that.
2800 -- now at size 2
2700 -- silk available.
2550 -- switch to Colossus
2300 -- discover CB, opt for Write
1850 -- Peasant is now a buffalo
1400 -- discover Write, opt for Monarchy
1250 size = 3.
1150 -- meet the Germans (4 spears) trade map for myst & stop there (they have two more techs.)
875 BC -- complete Col. (start temple)
575 -- discover Mon, now size 4 & opt for Lit.
550 revolt -- Germans come to talk -- they now have one spear, & are receptive; hmmm methinks they have bad times elsewhere…they want 50 in coin (OK), now cordial, they ask Me for an Alliance! Duh, OK. How about a gift? Get my 50 coins back.
525 -- Monarchy. -- We think we’re behind so we desperately try something new -- toggle to 0.3.7 -- we love.
500 -- Buy a library
475 -- What a difference a few turns make. Was running 5 beakers per turn before the Colossus, 8 after up to about 5 turns ago. Fifteen Beakers due to Monarchy & the growth of another pop. Now we’re at 27 with We love & a library.
400 -- Lit -- onto Phil.
300 -- Complete a road to Berlin (trying Elephant’s great ploy)
250 -- Discover Phil, learn Republic, opt for Curr; revolt.
225BC, Republic (I feel that I’m still Waaaaay behind.)
175 -- We love ends at size 5.
150 -- Get Sea from a hut; trade away Phil & Rep to the Germs & get Mas, WC & 100 coins.
(50 BC -- My Settler, helping Berlin with roads & irrigation is now hemmed in.)
1 AD -- discover currency; opt for Trade.
20 AD -- need 323 beakers, collect 30 on the turn, toggle to 1.1.8; buy a market.
180 -- meet the Romans, give away Phil & Myst & get IW.; (Americans are now three turns towards MPE.)
200 -- get 50 from the Germs.
220 -- discover Trade -- opt for Con 1
260 -- first camel completed (silver) now at size 6
280 (Settler now on way home) now at size 7
300 -- PRB another camel -- treasury down to 11 coins.
360 -- Aerks build Marco’s (Rats.)
380 -- Harbor sold for 60 coins (Rats again.)
400 -- Silver Camel (d) to Leipzig nets 215 coins (1st trade route)
420 -- Discover con1, opt for Math
460 -- Silk Camel (d) to Leipzig nets 276 (2nd trade route)
480 -- Gold Camel to Berlin (n) nets 76 of fun & profit (3rd trade route.), size = 8
500 -- discover math, opt for Med; need about 600 beakers, am getting 67 per turn. (Germans have no spears? I’m not on bottom?)
620 -- Dye (d) to Hamburg (Roman -- 5 spears) nets 208
640 -- Discover Med, opt for Astro (660 beakers required.)
720 -- Wine (d) to Hamburg = 270
760 -- Discover Astro, opt for Uni
800 -- Complete Shakes.
840 -- Complete aqueduct, give away Astro, get Bank & 50 from Germs, who start Copes.
860 -- Size = 9; Romans (who have GL) start Copes
880 -- Size = 10
900 -- Size = 11, toggle to 6.3.1 -- Romans discover Uni, but they won’t talk to us
920 -- Size = 12
940 -- Sell Temple (of all the mistakes, this may be the smallest so far.)
1020 -- Complete Copes (Germans & Romans abandon)
1060 -- RB a Bank, conversation gets Uni (switch research to BB) Wine (d) to Hamburg nets 404
1080 -- Discover BB, opt for TG; give Uni, BB to Germs for 25
1160 -- buy a University
1180 -- Discover TG, opt for Nav
1260 -- Discover Nav, opt for Phy -- trade for Romans & get Eng.
1280 -- Meet the Americans (6 Arrows) as they land on our shore with a settler & cat; Give away Nav, Astro, Uni, Get a Map, Inv & Alliance (if we give Uni Again -- no problemo there.) Buy the Amerk boat for our first sea going vessel. Wool to Berlin = 112
1340 -- Discover Phy, opt for Dem.
1380 -- Embassy with England.
1400 -- Buy a barb Crux (None)
1420 -- Americans discover Dem, (we trade Phy for their tech & switch to San; establish embassy with Americans.)
1440 -- Discover San, on to Mag. Deliver gold camel to the only location demanding it, New Orleans (for 87 coins -- not too bad for something 4 spaces away), the new American city that is now our Very Close Neighbor.
1460 -- Dye (d) to York = 232
1510 -- trade away San for Feud & 50 with Germans.
1520 -- Discover Mag, opt for Chem. RB towards Sewer.
1540 -- Size = 13, trade away Mag for Gun & 125 from Amerks (give Phy to Germs.)
1580 -- Buy Harbor, size = 17
1590 -- Discover Chem, opt for Exp (size = 18)
1610 -- Dye (d) to Atl = 684, size = 20.
1620 -- Discover Exp, opt for Metal, size = 21 (max for now) Gold (n) to Atl = 406
1650 -- Discover Metal, opt for Steam; Revolt
1660 -- Democracy build Eng 1; Give Exp to Amerks, get 200
1670 -- Build Eng 2, we love a bit
1700 -- Discover Steam, opt for Elec 1; back to size 21.
1730 -- Build Stock Ex (Rome first discovered this in 1560, we picked it up somewhere along the line.)
1740 -- Discover Elec 1, opt for Ref 1; gift of 100 from Germs.
1750 -- Amerks discover RR, trade that & 100 to us for Metal
1752 -- Complete Isaac Newton; give RR to Germs & get 100
1756 -- Discover Ref 1, opt for Con 2. need 1380 beakers can get 738 per turn with 0.0.10
1758 -- Gems to Atl (d) for 844 -- now all of my trade routes are with Atl.
1760 -- Discover Con 2, opt for Ind. Now need 1410 beakers.
1764 -- Amerks come to talk -- we get 100
1766 -- They talk again (trying to trage Poly; we decline, give them Elec & get 200)
1768 -- Discover Corp, opt for Elec2 (1470 beakers needed) (Mt is now a hill)
1774 Elec2
1780 Steel
1786 AT
1792 Ref2 -- “forced” to opt for Chiv; trade Elec2 for chiv, then change to Comb next turn.
1800 Comb
1806 Auto (1736 beakers needed)
1808 -- Buy a super highway (trade routes at max, 25 each)
1810 MP
1812 -- Do a little We Lovin’
1816 NF
1822 -- Leadership
1824 -- Complete Darwin’s, get Tactics & MT (Romans complete Leadership!)
1830 NP
1832 -- size = 27, nab our first Barb Leader
1834 -- Discover Mini; 2079 beakers required for next advance
1836 -- Deliver silk to NY for 1386
1838 -- Discover Computer (2112 beakers required) deliver oil (n) to Wash for 747
1842 -- Discover Mobil Warfare. (What?? Only 1690 beakers required? Hey We’re MODERATE!!!!! in power Wow! Toggle to enjoy the benefit.)
1844 -- Back to Inadequate and no matter what we do, we’ll lose a turn of research -- (2145 beakers required.)
1848 Robotics (need 2310b)
1851 Laser (need 2345b)
1853 Flight (Hmmm trade routes fall to 21 each)
1855 Radio deliver dye (n) = 864, silk (d) = 1296 to Bang
1856 AF (“forced” to research Commy -- talk to Amerks & trade for the tech, get 150, then talk to them on their turn & get another 150
1859 Rocketry (back to Moderate power again, but choose not to toggle the science away)
1860 Build a Manufacturing plant
1861 Space Flight (back to Inadequate -- beaker jump was 1872 to 2628.)
1862 buy an Airport
1865 Recyc (cut too fine a line for science & lost yet another turn of research
1867 Complete Apollo
1868 Learn ESP; SS#1; an SS per turn for the next few turns.
1869 Give Corp to Amer, get 200 (I’m not initiating these conversations, but instead choose to talk to maintain the alliance as long as possible -- no trades if I can avoid it.)
1871 Env (I want to avoid the pollution & the risk of dropping shields at the wrong time below the magic 80/turn
1874 Plastics (“forced’ to opt for GW -- talk to Romans & swap SF for GW) -- It happened -- pollution hit, have 70+ shields towards a SS part -- so we switch & buy a solar plant.
1875 complete SS#7
1877 Superconductor
1880 FP -- toggle down to 4.0.6 -- actually we have a reasonable amount of cash (over 4K, but we don’t need science that much either.
1884 Labor
1888 Stealth
1889 -- The Americans want Super (No) they cancel the alliance. Hmmm I’m defended by an Archer, Crux, a dip & a bunch of trucks -- Have 15 SS parts & 6 SC parts.
1890 Build a Stealth fighter -- better to be a little safer, I think.
1891 SM 1
1892 FT1, SM 2, Amerks sneak attack, three trucks die (having some extra food trucks surrounding the city has blocked a number of dips from “visiting” an Ameriacn Bomber dies due to the Stealth Fighter defense. hey the Germans come to our aid!
1893, SM3, LAUNCH
Next 15 turns, discover a few more techs, deliver some underwhelming freight payoffs locally, blast away numbers of American units (there are four of their cities on my “lands”), but the Germans never step in…Germans end the alliance as well. Four Roman dips land, talk about alliance, but we choose not to go to war with the Babylonians
1908 Land on AC.

Score = 290, Montezuma the Cruel, 37%, Pop = 3.78M

	08-10-2003 19:18									#27
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Looking for some RCC, I think that the lesser challenge will be to simply count the blunders.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if tech gifting is really great (some extreme jumps in my log are noted) or if one may also want to play some sort of power game -- can an OCC player nab enough None Units (do trucks count? (Dips/Spies?) I notice a drop off in the power graph as I cash in the trucks in the late/end game)

Although the tech change bounced a few hundred beaker's worth late in the game, it didn't mean much -- techs were coming every other turn regardless -- meaning the "cost" was a few coins (but by that time I was rather rich -- over 7K in coins. In the very late game, the techs were slowed to 1 per three turns, but after SF, one needs 20+ turns to build SS stuff anyway, so that speed isn't so critical.

Biggest blunder was the extra hut (wasn't burned by the first extra hut, but it only takes one) -- might have cost me a dozen turns.

2nd biggest blunder was to delay Apollo & the SS building -- I wanted some spies for defense of technology -- too careful there I think.

Last edited by Old n Slow on 16-10-2003 at 19:47

	09-10-2003 09:36									#28
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OnS:
I won't begin to criticize your late game, but in the beginning I think you missed a bet by not trying the Size 1 settler strategy. I was able to work the gold mine and build a settler in 3400 still size 1, then use it to mine the gold and the hidden special and finally fold it in to get to size 3 in 2800BC. I had Republican government in 1650, and Trade in 1300, so that was a pretty good start.

Of course, from that point I totally squandered it, and I was only a couple of techs ahead of you at 1AD.

	09-10-2003 22:06									#29
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Grigor,

I thought of using the size one settler trick myself, but the OCC players discussed its use a few years back in the strategy forum and the consensus then was to no longer allow it in comparison games.

However, I guess it would be perfectly legit to use it in this game, which is being played by the standard set of rules. You did get off to a great start by using it. I did not reach Republic until 525 BC, which was long after you did.

I have bumped the relevant size one settler thread in the strategy forum in case you or others would like to check it.

	10-10-2003 06:05									#30
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I didn't remember much discussion of the size1 settler technique.