24-09-2003 20:59									#61
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Last edited by Q Cubed on 24-09-2003 at 21:27

	24-09-2003 21:05									#62
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Are you trying real hard to be funny?

	24-09-2003 21:22									#63
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no.









i'm not trying at all.

	25-09-2003 03:17									#64
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quote: also the fact that there are animal homosexuals, when it doesn't make sense from anything obviously environmental or social suggests that it is something hormonal and/or genetic that is easily triggered

I'd much more likely characterize them as animal BI-sexuals. They tend to have sex to reproduce later in life.

quote: you will realize that many people who have not divorced yet, stay married for all the wrong reasons in spite of the serious, unresolved problems -- one of which, is their sex life.

You're not getting it! Why would you GET married in the first place to a gay that really isn't into you? I mean, staying in a long term marriage is understandable (you don't want to throw all those years away), but why would you let it get to that point if you partner just doesn't seem to really care about you physically?

quote: wouldn't it still be difficult for a female prostitute to "take it" from a client that she finds unattractive?

Open your legs and let it happen. Much easier for a woman to have sex with someone unattractive than a man, because the man has to sexually turned on to have sex (as long as he is not the 'bottom' during homosexual sex), while a woman doesn't.

	25-09-2003 03:25									#65
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quote: didn't the most vocal case of "homosexual rehabilitation" in the us admit to have had homosexual relations after his supposed "cure"?

What 'cure?'

You still have to work at it, and people do slip back into old familiar patterns. Just because one person slips, does not even mean that the whole process has finished, let alone render the process meaningless for others.

	25-09-2003 06:24									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You're not getting it! Why would you GET married in the first place to a gay that really isn't into you? I mean, staying in a long term marriage is understandable (you don't want to throw all those years away), but why would you let it get to that point if you partner just doesn't seem to really care about you physically? Open your legs and let it happen. Much easier for a woman to have sex with someone unattractive than a man, because the man has to sexually turned on to have sex (as long as he is not the 'bottom' during homosexual sex), while a woman doesn't.

They usually GET married before they come out to themselves (realizing they're gay).



And just because it's physically easier for a woman to have sex with a troll, does not mean the woman is going to enjoy it.

	25-09-2003 06:38									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Actually Lincoln -- I doubt there are any closeted heterosexuals, since social norms and conventions obviously embrace heterosexuality.

I used to work in a prison. There were quite a few "conversions" there. The norms there were not the same as they are out here. I also worked with parolees after they were released from prison. Some changed back and forth depending on the influence or temptation. Maybe they were bisexual or maybe they were deprived so they tried something new. There certainly is no easy answer. We cannot say that no one changes. Some are more set in a particular orientation than others.

	25-09-2003 06:40									#68
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Closeted heterosexuals, huh?


Maybe there's even intelligent life on Mars.

	25-09-2003 06:42									#69
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That would be refreshing. Maybe they would listen to reason.

	25-09-2003 06:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln That would be refreshing. Maybe they would listen to reason.

So basically, you're saying that the increased sexual activity in prisons between men creates an unusual social norm, where heterosexuals are hated?

	25-09-2003 06:58									#71
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Not really. But there may be in certain quarters in the prison certain people who will do you harm if you do not submit to their idea of a good time. Some learn to enjoy the alternate lifestyle. Alternate, that is to the one they lived before they went to prison. It is really quite confusing but I remember a few people who liked to play both fields.

	25-09-2003 07:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I have talked with many homosexual men who are older than me, who have been married and divorced, or are still married. Guess what all of those guys I talked with said in one form or another . . . they were gay before they ever married. Of course that is what they say now . If they were truely gay for the entirety of their lives, they sure were sexually attracted to the other gender too damn much .

Or possibly, they were brought up in a community, or a religion, or a society that 'mandated' that they get married to someone of the opposite sex, regardless of their true sexual identity. I've met plenty of gay men and lesbians from the Indian sub-continent and even second and third generation British Asians who say that the pressure to conform to what is expected of them by their families and religions is so great, the choice is limited in their minds to commit suicide or marry- and live a lie.

	25-09-2003 07:17									#73
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quote: I doubt there are any closeted heterosexuals, since social norms and conventions obviously embrace heterosexuality.

I'm a closeted heterosexual.

	25-09-2003 07:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi We are not asking for these people to model other Christians, but instead, to model Christ, building on a rock rather than on sand.

Yeah right. We ask for bread, they give us stones.

Do you think picketing the funeral of a murdered gay man is a particularly 'Christian' thing to do?

Killing a queer for Christ?

I don't believe my life, nor the lives of my friends, are lives built on sand. But I believe that trying to get us to conform to an outmoded incorrect view of sexuality is attempting to fetter us with ropes of sand.

What you don't realize is that these people (and you if you do it too) are encouraging hate- you are encouraging gay men and lesbians to hate themselves on a fundamental defining level of their lives. If you really believed in the concept of 'caritas', then you would love us for who we are- and believe me, I do not see my sexuality and all that it entails as being like politics, or spicy food, or reading matter or fashion- it isn't something I pick up, or prefer, or anything else that I can change. I could deny it (as indeed I did,and so do many other Catholics), hide it, wish it would disappear, but ultimately I realized that the feelings I had had since I first could have sexual feelings, were genuine, and were not about to be changed by wishful thinking- or prayer.

	25-09-2003 07:51									#75
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molly bloom:

quote: Do you think picketing the funeral of a murdered gay man is a particularly 'Christian' thing to do?

No.

quote: Killing a queer for Christ?

No, neither are Christian, and I challenge you to find an example of where I have called for Christians to kill homosexuals.

quote: I don't believe my life, nor the lives of my friends, are lives built on sand. But I believe that trying to get us to conform to an outmoded incorrect view of sexuality is attempting to fetter us with ropes of sand.

I believe that you do not understand the analogy. The passage:

Matthew 7:24-7

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."


Everyone who trusts in themselves, rather than God has built their house on sand. It is by no means limited to homosexuals. Besides, your analogy with ropes of sand is poor.

quote: What you don't realize is that these people (and you if you do it too) are encouraging hate- you are encouraging gay men and lesbians to hate themselves on a fundamental defining level of their lives.

In that sense, I am guilty for making everyone hate themselves to some degree. For have we not all sinned? Do not in charging me with the lesser offense, avoid the greater. My question is this, what reason do any of us have to be proud?

quote: If you really believed in the concept of 'caritas', then you would love us for who we are-

What father, who loves his son, fails to correct him when he strays? Not all correction comes from hate, but some comes out of love.

	25-09-2003 07:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Not really. But there may be in certain quarters in the prison certain people who will do you harm if you do not submit to their idea of a good time. Some learn to enjoy the alternate lifestyle. Alternate, that is to the one they lived before they went to prison. It is really quite confusing but I remember a few people who liked to play both fields.

I have been aware of increased sexual activity among men in prison environments, and the high level of sexual tension, but your concept of "closeted heterosexuals" -- even in that context, is something I have never considered before.

	25-09-2003 07:57									#77
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quote: They usually GET married before they come out to themselves (realizing they're gay).

I always wondered about this. If being homosexual is genetic (rather than just a point on the sliding scale), why wouldn't they realize they like naked men when younger?

And furthermore, doesn't that destroy your point that the men knew they were gay before they married?

quote: And just because it's physically easier for a woman to have sex with a troll, does not mean the woman is going to enjoy it.

Who says the women is enjoying anything? The fact remains that a man MUST be arroused to have sex. A women does not have to.

quote: Or possibly, they were brought up in a community, or a religion, or a society that 'mandated' that they get married to someone of the opposite sex, regardless of their true sexual identity. I've met plenty of gay men and lesbians from the Indian sub-continent and even second and third generation British Asians who say that the pressure to conform to what is expected of them by their families and religions is so great, the choice is limited in their minds to commit suicide or marry- and live a lie.

Perhaps, but I don't think Mr Fun was talking to people from the Indian subcontient or the Islamic world. I'm thinking that he was talking about white homosexuals he knows from Iowa. He is talking about those men in the US that dated, got married, and then came out. For all the talk about the 50s, there was no where near the societal pressure to marry the opposite gender as you are talking about (especially considering families where the kids move away).

	25-09-2003 08:02									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: They usually GET married before they come out to themselves (realizing they're gay). I always wondered about this. If being homosexual is genetic (rather than just a point on the sliding scale), why wouldn't they realize they like naked men when younger? And furthermore, doesn't that destroy your point that the men knew they were gay before they married? Who says the women is enjoying anything? The fact remains that a man MUST be arroused to have sex. A women does not have to.

I will reiterate AGAIN -- I no longer adhere exclusively to the genetic theory in regards to sexual orientation.
But regardless of how it develops, I meant that the gay man was always gay before he married -- he just did not realize it until later.



Let's get off this "criteria to enjoy sex" argument. It's a side road that is not leading anywhere.

	25-09-2003 08:03									#79
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quote: I meant that the gay man was always gay before he married -- he just did not realize it until later.

Sorry, I'm just not buying that argument. Maybe we should end that one either .

	25-09-2003 08:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Perhaps, but I don't think Mr Fun was talking to people from the Indian subcontient or the Islamic world. I'm thinking that he was talking about white homosexuals he knows from Iowa. He is talking about those men in the US that dated, got married, and then came out. For all the talk about the 50s, there was no where near the societal pressure to marry the opposite gender as you are talking about (especially considering families where the kids move away).

You're going to try to make me stay up later than I want to again tonight, aren't ya?


In regards to societal pressure -- the norm has been that you can only marry someone of the opposite gender, not necessarily that you have to marry. But if you did marry, it better be someone of opposite gender.

But I still believe that even the fact that you should marry, was indeed a societal pressure until recent decades.

	25-09-2003 08:09									#81
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quote: In regards to societal pressure -- the norm has been that you can only marry someone of the opposite gender, not necessarily that you have to marry. But if you did marry, it better be someone of opposite gender. But I still believe that even the fact that you should marry, was indeed a societal pressure until recent decades.

Yes, it was a societal pressure, BUT you cannot argue that it as much pressure as, say, Subcontinental or Arabic pressures. One of the main reasons is because children move away from the home in the US. Also there were plenty of people who did not marry. And after the 1960s, the 'marriage' influence did decrease.

	25-09-2003 08:11									#82
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Maybe not as much pressure as non-Western nations, but that was not the gist of my argument anway.

	25-09-2003 08:39									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi a. No, neither are Christian, and I challenge you to find an example of where I have called for Christians to kill homosexuals. b. I believe that you do not understand the analogy. The passage: Matthew 7:24-7 c. Everyone who trusts in themselves, rather than God has built their house on sand. It is by no means limited to homosexuals. Besides, your analogy with ropes of sand is poor. d. What father, who loves his son, fails to correct him when he strays? Not all correction comes from hate, but some comes out of love.

a. It wasn't an accusation- simply an example of what the 'Christian' continuum throws up. I prefer acts rather than labels, to define people.

b. You would be wrong. I know my Bible (I believe the Authorized, King James Version to be a defining moment in the English language and literature- I don't believe it to be a basis for modern society). My analogy with ropes of sand is taken from a poem by the Anglican divine George Herbert. And I believe it holds true.

c. As a humanist, I believe in humanity and mutual support as the foundations for life. I don't need religious proscription to tell me that charity and good works are good in and of themselves- to me it is self-evident. I also believe I live a moral life.

d. Do you realize how patronizing this surrounds? Whether you do it out of love or ignorance, it is incredibly condescending. I have been in a committed relationship with someone I love, and whose family loves me, for the past 19 years. I really don't need you telling me that's all an error.

Imran- I suugest that you read some 'gay' history of the 1950's- personal testimonies from gay men and lesbians of what life was like for them in the Eisenhower/Churchill/Eden era. Reaction in the United States and Great Britain was swift after the end of WWII- a period when uniting against a common danger had meant that many gay men and lesbians were able to serve in the armed forces, be more open about who they were, and when the fear of imminent death meant that many people thought why not have sex? I might be dead tomorrow, so hang the consequences.

The pressure to conform was severe- the most renowned casualty in Great Britain being Alan Turing.

And what a loss to science that was.

	25-09-2003 08:50									#84
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quote: a. It wasn't an accusation- simply an example of what the 'Christian' continuum throws up. I prefer acts rather than labels, to define people.

Fair enough, although you asked me whether I considered such behavior 'Christian'. Most Christians would be appalled by such behavior and would discipline their participating members if such actions or comments came to light.

quote: My analogy with ropes of sand is taken from a poem by the Anglican divine George Herbert. And I believe it holds true.

What do you know, I found the piece. I owe you an apology. Besides, the shackles I think he refers to are the Puritans of his time.

George Herbert

THE COLLAR.


I STRUCK the board, and cry’d, No more ;
I will abroad.
What ? shall I ever sigh and pine ?
My lines and life are free ; free as the rode,
Loose as the winde, as large as store.
Shall I be still in suit ?
Have I no harvest but a thorn
To let me bloud, and not restore
What I have lost with cordiall fruit ?
Sure there was wine,
Before my sighs did drie it : there was corn
Before my tears did drown it.
Is the yeare onely lost to me ?
Have I no bayes to crown it ?
No flowers, no garlands gay ? all blasted ?
All wasted ?
Not so, my heart : but there is fruit,
And thou hast hands.
Recover all thy sigh-blown age
On double pleasures : leave thy cold dispute
Of what is fit, and not forsake thy cage,
Thy rope of sands,
Which pettie thoughts have made, and made to thee
Good cable, to enforce and draw,
And be thy law,
While thou didst wink and wouldst not see.
Away ; take heed :
I will abroad.
Call in thy deaths head there : tie up thy fears.
He that forbears
To suit and serve his need,
Deserves his load.
But as I rav’d and grew more fierce and wilde,
At every word,
Methought I heard one calling, Childe :
And I reply’d, My Lord

quote: You would be wrong. I know my Bible (I believe the Authorized, King James Version to be a defining moment in the English language and literature- I don't believe it to be a basis for modern society).

Why not a basis for society?

quote: c. As a humanist, I believe in humanity and mutual support as the foundations for life. I don't need religious proscription to tell me that charity and good works are good in and of themselves- to me it is self-evident.

No, you don't need God to tell you everything that can be moral. In fact, without some sense of right and wrong, we would be lost.

quote: I also believe I live a moral life.

Who doesn't?

quote: I really don't need you telling me that's all an error.

You think I make this up myself? Perhaps you ought to examine your KJV just a little more carefully.

	25-09-2003 09:04									#85
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Why cant we just let gays do their thing... Whatever it is that they do in private. I really dont wanna know much details.

	25-09-2003 09:05									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi leave thy cold dispute Of what is fit, and not forsake thy cage, Thy rope of sands Which pettie thoughts have made, and made to thee Good cable, to enforce and draw, And be thy law, While thou didst wink and wouldst not see. Away ; take heed : I will abroad. Call in thy deaths head there : tie up thy fears. He that forbears To suit and serve his need, Deserves his load. Why not a basis for society? You think I make this up myself? Perhaps you ought to examine your KJV just a little more carefully.

I don't need to examine the Bible more carefully- I'm aware of its moral prescripts and proscripts, I hold that I can do without them- or at least that I can provide and hold to my own. Without being deemed an immoral person, simply because I love another man.

So call in your death's head- I will suit and serve my need, without Bible sanctioned fears.

And I would have thought the tenor of my posts enough to indicate I don't think you make this up- but I do think you are wrong, and that you and these people are ultimately doing harm to a section of society.

As for the Bible not being a basis for a modern society- well, I believe it lacking for the same reasons I believe the Egyptian Book of the Dead lacking, or the Mahabharata, or the Koran, or the corpus of the Graeco-Roman myths.

I'm glad you found the reference to Herbert- in the spirit of Luther's 'why should the devil have all the best tunes?' I hoped I could point you to his writing. In an age riven with religious intolerance, Herbert was a voice of moderation- I value his writing greatly. A pity his example is not followed by more 'Christians'.

	25-09-2003 09:17									#87
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quote: spirit of Luther's 'why should the devil have all the best tunes?'

That's a good quote, one of the big reasons for the importance placed on singing hymns in church. How can I disagree with such good music, loud and joyful?

quote: Herbert was a voice of moderation

With the Puritans of his age, I would probably be a moderate. Remember the time that he writes when looking at his literature, because this will often lead to greater understanding of why he writes what he does.

quote: I believe it lacking for the same reasons I believe the Egyptian Book of the Dead lacking, or the Mahabharata, or the Koran, or the corpus of the Graeco-Roman myths.

Hard to believe, eh? A man dies, lies in the ground for 3 days and then returns and appears to his disciples? Pretty far out. I asked for evidence too when I first heard the story.

	25-09-2003 09:36									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Hard to believe, eh? A man dies, lies in the ground for 3 days and then returns and appears to his disciples? Pretty far out. I asked for evidence too when I first heard the story.

What is truth? What is evidence?

All truths and evidences are mutable.