24-09-2003 00:36									#1
	The Danger of Touch Screen Voting Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: "[W]e need to make sure the press never finds out this because we don't want them to know we have a problem." "We just didn't want a document floating around saying the election industry is in trouble, so they decided to put together a lobbying campaign." Walden O'Dell, the CEO of Diebold, is a major fundraiser for President Bush. In a letter to fellow Republicans, O'Dell said that he was "COMMITTED TO HELPING OHIO DELIVER ITS ELECTORAL VOTES TO THE PRESIDENT NEXT YEAR."

The problem is this: the touch screen voting systems that California and many other states aer planning to use have a MAJOR security flaw. The data isn't secure. Anyone can go in using MS Access and change the voting results. In fact, if you know what you're doing, you can do it over the internet!

The story is here. You'll have to go through an advert to have access to it. Do it. Your democracy depends on this info getting out.

	24-09-2003 00:48									#2
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I bet you benefit from every click on that advert.

	24-09-2003 00:51									#3
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The other problem is that the voting software is closed source and there is NO paper trail. You have no proof that your vote was counted properly, and no recourse if it wasn't.

	24-09-2003 00:55									#4
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Do you read anything besides Salon? I prefer http://www.americanfreepress.net/ myself, or http://propagandamatrix.com

	24-09-2003 00:55									#5
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They should electronic signature validated software. There's a lot out there, many GMP facilities use one type or another...

	24-09-2003 00:59									#6
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That's scary, and they seem to provide a decent amount of proof. I remember thinking as I voted last election that I had no way of knowing how my vote was really counted.

But then, paper ballot boxes get stuffed too, and it is hard to prove that they have been stuffed.

	24-09-2003 01:02									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon Do you read anything besides Salon?

It depends. Salon is a reputable new magainze.

	24-09-2003 01:04									#8
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Fair enough. For my two cents:
I think that if votes are going to be tampered with, they will be tampered with. Technology is just a means to an end.

	24-09-2003 01:07									#9
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Here's the thing. Most of these companies are owned by Republicans. There were serious problems with the election in Georgia and there were six surprise outcomes, all benefitting Repiblicans, including the defeat of one incumbant with an 11 point lead.

	24-09-2003 01:07									#10
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good, maybe this will stop the damn reds getting in

	24-09-2003 01:09									#11
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Tampering is an art form in Chicago. They can "find" an extra million votes whenever the Dems need them

	24-09-2003 01:10									#12
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In Alabama they just keep sending 'em to the polls. It's one of the activities we pride ourselves on equal opportunity.

	24-09-2003 02:17									#13
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A surprise outcome does not prove anything. And I'm sure you'll find that most CEOs are Republicans.

And how are the dead in chicago going to vote using touch screen? But I'm sure the Dems will figure it out.

	24-09-2003 02:19									#14
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quote: And how are the dead in chicago going to vote using touch screen?

If the mountain won't go to Mohammed...

	24-09-2003 03:42									#15
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quote: In fact, if you know what you're doing, you can do it over the internet!

However, fortunately, most people who know what they're doing will spend their time changing Bush's middle name to 'Abigail' anyways.

	24-09-2003 03:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat If the mountain won't go to Mohammed...

Surely people called Mohammed aren't allowed to vote in the US anyway.

	24-09-2003 04:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell However, fortunately, most people who know what they're doing will spend their time changing Bush's middle name to 'Abigail' anyways.

Or "Olivia" Then he'd be all G.O.B.

	24-09-2003 04:07									#18
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Next thing ya know they are going to allow illiterates to vote and just put a picture of who they want to win up on the screen! Man, imagine the voter error there... Oh, I though Bush was the robot...

Why do we always have to make things easier for idiots?

	24-09-2003 04:09									#19
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Suprise poltical victories to the Republicans were not a phenomon limited to Georgia in 2002, they were happening all over the country. It's certainly not an unheard phenonomon to see a poltician with a lead in the polls leading up the election lose in the election itself.

It's certainly disturbing that security is so lax for voting procedures, but so far their is no evidence of ill intent.

	24-09-2003 07:15									#20
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quote: In a letter to fellow Republicans, O'Dell said that he was "COMMITTED TO HELPING OHIO DELIVER ITS ELECTORAL VOTES TO THE PRESIDENT NEXT YEAR."

And I bet in a letter to Democrats, he said the same thing . These are CEOs we are talking about here, they are very smart... with both parties.

	24-09-2003 12:06									#21
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I haven't really read anything on this matter besides the headlines, so maybe this is an already-answered question:
Do the voting machines in question print out receipts so the individual user has proof-in-hand of their vote?
If not...why...and would it be that difficult to do so?

	24-09-2003 16:06									#22
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Why, oh why don't they use a simple piece of paper/cardboard, and put the NUMBER OF THE ELECTEE on that piece of paper?
Then count the numbers.

Works in Finland.

	24-09-2003 16:20									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Damn Finns and your stupid logic!

Here in Nevada, ballots are old-fashioned #2 pencil (or pen) taken to a piece of paper and you fill in a little circle right next to the name of the candidate you wish to vote for. You take the completed ballot to the nice people operating that precinct's voting booths and place it (following the big arrow) into the machine that tallies the votes. The nice people then give you a stub verifying you've cast your vote(s) and also give you a "I Voted" sticker. Very clear paper-trail in the event of a recount.

God forbid it should be made that easy everywhere...

	24-09-2003 16:21									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon Fair enough. For my two cents: I think that if votes are going to be tampered with, they will be tampered with. Technology is just a means to an end.

Might as well make it easy then?

Seriously this is the third or fourth time recently I've been stunned by "Oh well it'll happen anyway" reactions from American posters to things like this.

	24-09-2003 16:39									#25
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It's quite disgusting that (parts of) the US cannot run a proper election. One would think that a country with more than one hundered years of experience should have it together by now. As Ming probably can tell us loads about, places like Chicago (Soon the be renamed as the Kingdom of Daleyland) has probably not ever had a decent election.

	24-09-2003 18:29									#26
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The Danger of stupid people voting

	24-09-2003 18:33									#27
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The US should ask for UN help to regulate it's elections and ensure they are fair.

	24-09-2003 18:38									#28
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Didn't Mugabe ask America if he could offer them any help monitoring the Bush-Gore election fiasco?

He might be a murdering, mad son-of-a-***** but he's got a sense of humour

	24-09-2003 19:32									#29
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i honestly cannot believe that they were using access as the db...

access? jeebus, there are so many other more powerful db solutions--microsoft sql, mysql, postgresql...

access? capping out at 255 users, too. stupid.

	24-09-2003 19:32									#30
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The national paper in Zimbabwe carried the most hilarious editorial in re: our election. This long run on paragraph went something like:

Imagine a country in which the decision of who was to be president came down to a few hundred votes. Now imagine that the decision was being made in a province run by one of the contestants's brothers. Now imagine that that contestants father had once been leader o that country. Now imagine that the father had also once been head of the nation's secret police. Anywhere else in the world, this would be a scandal and there would be international calls for monitoring, etc. Now imagine this country is the USA.