24-09-2003 18:55									#1
	POLL -- cycon trade Got spare money?

WEll it has come down to it with our cycon dealings . ..

They state they want doc flex NOW and if we won't trade it, they will get it from the AI.

They offer 2 choices

1. energy credits now, current offer is at 90 and they switch research to HEC to give to us in completion of the old ind auto deal

2. A tech for doc flex-- They will give us HEC when they finish it ( 6 years IIRC) if we give them doc flex NOW . . . they would still owe us a tech from the prior deal


THis leaves us with a few options

1. accept either of the above deals
2. tell them to go away and hope the AI won't sell them doc flex but risk them getting it for no advantage to us
3. just negotiate and negotiate to stall and see if they will push things to a head

Last edited by Flubber on 24-09-2003 at 19:03

	24-09-2003 20:13									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

As much as I'd love to tell them to jump in a lake, I'd rather us get the cred than Roze. And after this I don't trust them on anymore 'another tech later' deals (Unless, as in the case of HEC, it's deilverable within less than 10 turns)

edit 3 billion and five: nevermind leave it as it is

Last edited by Makahlua on 24-09-2003 at 22:54

	24-09-2003 21:09									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Lets just take the EC's and run, and then bury it on treasure islet, at least this way were sure that we are gaining something.

	24-09-2003 22:48									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I want to tell them to stuff it. I want to call their bluff. After all 90 ecs is a mere pod pop.
But we might need that future tech trade and the longer it is delayed the more valuable it gets (as our tech costs rise). Also it keeps the Borg from galloping ahead tech wise in the short term.

Secondly, we can change our minds. Say 3 years from now we could say to the Borg we'll wipe the tech slate clean for the second owed tech for 90ecs. So I feel we can have it both ways.

Third the Borgs now hold the turn. I would settle for option two if they will agree to defer a year. A guarantee we will send it in 2138. If they won't accept that tell them go ahead talk to the AI.

So voting for 2.

	25-09-2003 00:54									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Voted for the 90 PofE and them researching/giving-to-us the HEC tech in 5+ years (but not a lot plus).

I am as annoyed with them as anyone here if not more so. but I am willing to put off our revenge for a little while at least - until we get our trade balance back to even with them anyway; I doubt that they would be honoring their debts should we go hostile with them.

If they are not bluffing, us getting the 90 is better than Roze or Miriam getting it. Even if they are bluffing, if we trade it to them, we still won't be recovered from the IndAuto deal until 15 or 20 years from now (assuming they don't do the same thing to us again, in which case it could be never); given the way our relations with them are going, there is a good chance that we will no longer be doing business with them by then (except for our more traditional piratatical business plan), so we will essentially get nothing for it then. Maybe clearing the decks of all the old deals will put all the bad feelings behind us and we can start fresh with them.

Hopefully, they will be unable to retrade it before we are done milking it, and will not claim that their next choice of techs did not include HEC (or NonLinear), but instead 'forced' them to research something we would be earnestly p!$$ed off for them to be studying (like Doc:Init, especially, but perhaps also including EthicalCalc or anything else we have or expect to get). Ambas'dor Flubber may wish to warn them (diplomatically, of course) of the consequences of such behavior and get appropriate assurances.

Maki, as to using the pact as leverage, I think we are the ones benefiting from it at the moment, rather than them, at least in terms of commerce, although I would have to check to be sure. Even so, it is probably a pittance, but it can have a psychological effect anyway. It is easy enough to unpact, but it is not always so easy to get rid of a treaty, which would have similar (but less) trade implications, although close as we are, they could presumably send over a warrior-scout to engage a former of ours if they wanted to un-treaty bad enough. Remember, our warships now have the capture possibility, so they could be donating whatever ships they send over, including their passengers.

WE NEED DEFENSIVE PROBES (Preferably morale-upgraded by military facs).

	25-09-2003 04:20									#6
	Remove this text

IMportant change


The cycon are now offering if we go tech for tech, they will lend us 75 ec until they return HEC to us-- so its tech for cash and then cash for tech-- their outstanding obligation owing us a tech would remain

	25-09-2003 04:46									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What I take from this is they tried trade with the AI and it didn't work. Would that be a correct assumption.

	25-09-2003 05:47									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Maybe they'd be willing to pay us a nominal fee in the meanwhile, like they let us keep 5 ec per turn until we get the HEC and of course, they couldn't retrade the Doc: Flex. After all, that still leaves us in the lurch for the IndAuto deal for the entire time it takes them to do the next research. BTW, where did we leave off the discussions with them about all the fees and interest in that complicated and controversal deal we floated with them before?

Herc, if they tried with the AI and couldn't do it, wouldn't they be all the more likely to buy it from us instead of proposing this odd arrangement? Perhaps they have something else in mind for the money.

	25-09-2003 17:45									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Hercules What I take from this is they tried trade with the AI and it didn't work. Would that be a correct assumption.

They claimed that they have confirmed they CAN get it from the AI . .. . The "loan" theysay was just a way to try to make the deal more fair in that we would get the use of 75 ec for the same amount of time they got the use of Doc flex

	25-09-2003 17:46									#10
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Maybe they'd be willing to pay us a nominal fee in the meanwhile, like they let us keep 5 ec per turn until we get the HEC and of course, they couldn't retrade the Doc: Flex. After all, that still leaves us in the lurch for the IndAuto deal for the entire time it takes them to do the next research. BTW, where did we leave off the discussions with them about all the fees and interest in that complicated and controversal deal we floated with them before? Herc, if they tried with the AI and couldn't do it, wouldn't they be all the more likely to buy it from us instead of proposing this odd arrangement? Perhaps they have something else in mind for the money.

They rejected all the complicated stuff with the simple argument that they can get the tech for a lot less from the AI

	25-09-2003 17:59									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

[qoute]Maybe they'd be willing to pay us a nominal fee in the meanwhile, like they let us keep 5 ec per turn until we get the HEC and of course, they couldn't retrade the Doc: Flex. After all, that still leaves us in the lurch for the IndAuto deal for the entire time it takes them to do the next research.[/quote]

I like this proposal.

I am still in favour of the tech deal. From our point of view we hope to have a batch of techs from the other deals, so a delay in 1 won't hurt. If the Borg change settings to PM it might speed their research rate.?

	26-09-2003 01:28									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think that not only should we get the tech now, but if we don't get ind auto when they get it or they don't switch when the time comes, that we have forces ready to sweep in and crush them and take more then they bargained for.
((I am a carefully agressive player who, even when he is the weakest, will still sweep up out of no where and take a town when it would be to my advantage. But I will always check to see if I can hold those before doing so.))

I also beleive we need to start maping their borders and maybe even the locations of a few towns in preperation for such a bold menuver.

Also, we can take a tech if tech steal is on. ((I can't remember if it is or not.))

	26-09-2003 01:46									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 23:37

	26-09-2003 03:16									#14
	Got spare money?

Atlantian, FYI we got the IndAuto from them, it's just that we had to provide one more tech than they providedd us in the course of that deal (which was also rancorous) and they haven't yet paid that off. What further irritated us was that they started researching Doc:Flex, knowing of course that we already had it, instead of something we didn't have in repayment of the deficit. In fact, we imagine that they figured to force us to trade Doc:Flex to them by this gambit, on pain of putting off our repayment tech another 10 or 15 years.

	26-09-2003 19:27									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We still need to harass them for the owed tech... what was the final outcome (never had a chance to vote)

	27-09-2003 02:29									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, so I didn't have the story quite right, but, I still got my general point across.

	29-09-2003 19:13									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller What further irritated us was that they started researching Doc:Flex, knowing of course that we already had it, instead of something we didn't have in repayment of the deficit.

But ... but ... they learned from the best. (Remember your famous bluff re Plan Net?)

In case you don't, here's the link

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black ...............

	29-09-2003 19:51									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Googlie But ... but ... they learned from the best. (Remember your famous bluff re Plan Net?) In case you don't, here's the link Talk about the pot calling the kettle black ...............

Now now googlie-- we didn't really bluff since we could have researched plan nets ourselves and in fact, I was mildly suprised when our operations folks chose to head for another tech before the plan nets deal was FULLY nailed down. I think we saved some tech cost on our next tech by finishing soc psych before accepting plan nets . . . thats ALL we did-- If we knew they would not trade, we would have researched it ourselves.

WE have NEVER had an outstanding obligation to another faction that we have ignored as they have done .

	29-09-2003 19:54									#19
	Tired of ads?

Googlie


I looked at the old thread again and the verbatim text of my messages with maniac. I was completely honest !! I said we would go for soc psych if they would trade and plan nets if they would not . . . Thats what happened. NO bluff

	30-09-2003 06:35									#20
	re: kitchen analogies Increase the size of your Attachments

Well Googlie, I agree that we were bluffing, Cap'n Ambas'dor's sealawyerese notwithstanding, but the Borg didn't exactlly learn this from us - they started this one all on their own (seemingly based on feeling abused/out-negotiated in the 1st and/or 2nd deals); they had no way of knowing what we were or were not doing in the beginning, before or after (while we know full well what they did, both before and after), so its more like the potholder calling the kettle black.