24-09-2003 21:08									#31
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I don't think a comparison of Japan and China is helpful. By objective standards, I would argue for about half of the security council seats going to Asia.

You could make the argument that Russia is also Asia, and therefore the new seat should be limited to either India or Japan (4 out of 6 in Asia would be a lot). That has some merit.

	24-09-2003 21:19									#32
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Virginie Ledoyen.

An excellent reason why we should still consider France a world power.

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	24-09-2003 21:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I have three basic criteria, in order of importance: 1) Economy; 2) Geography; and 3) Population. I would be willing to consider other criteria, of course. But these 3 criteria are the primary determinants of power.

One interesting suggestion was made to disconnect the permanent status from the veto, in order to have all continents represented with permanent members in the council (Indian sub-continent, South America and Africa). And the veto would be limited to instances where the vital interests of the nation are threatened.

	24-09-2003 22:03									#34
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I have an idea that may be worth an extra thread.

assuming you agree with the idea of permanent security council members, please post your suggestions for the ideal countries to fill them.


United States
China
Russia (not sure. they weakened alot)
United Kingdom
Germany (perhaps sharing a seat with France and Italy and Spain)
India
Japan

Australia?
South Africa?

	24-09-2003 22:11									#35
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the only problem with adding more nations with full veto powers?

you'll probably end up with a situation akin to the polish congress.

you know, the one who couldn't agree on how to defend their country against the russian/prussian/austrohungarian annexation. filled with princes, all of whom had veto power.

and i bet they were all more mature than these countries.

	24-09-2003 22:59									#36
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Q Cubed- most countries don't use veto power. It's like nuclear weapons - primarily used for intimidation

	24-09-2003 23:03									#37
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oh, i know most don't use it. but the mere threat of its use by more nations, i'd wager, would paralyze an already ossified security council.

	24-09-2003 23:43									#38
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I think the Security Council permanent members (With Vetoes) should go to those with the military power to hold them

this is obviously the US, Russia, and China

I think UK is there as well

France is not clearly over others I Think

Jon Miller

	24-09-2003 23:59									#39
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I think the veto cripples the UN and make it toothless. The veto has become obsolete.

I also think that nations that don't pay their dues to UN should lose their voting right.

	25-09-2003 00:02									#40
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if the US left the UN, would the UN have any meaning?

Jon Miller

	25-09-2003 00:09									#41
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The US has already left UN, whenever it fits their purposes.

	25-09-2003 00:16									#42
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By that measure, did the US ever join the UN in the first place?

	25-09-2003 00:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed the only problem with adding more nations with full veto powers? you'll probably end up with a situation akin to the polish congress. you know, the one who couldn't agree on how to defend their country against the russian/prussian/austrohungarian annexation. filled with princes, all of whom had veto power. and i bet they were all more mature than these countries.

a serious concern - you cant realistically toss existing members of the P5 off, and you need to add members to more realistically reflect 2003 balance of power. at least 3 or 4 members. But too many members with veto leads to paralysis.

Solution - require 2 negative votes by perm members to block a resolution. US wouldnt agree to this, so give them as a "hyperpower" super veto, so that US veto by itself blocks a resolution. Add Germany, Japan, and India making 8 permanent members.

US should go along,as of course the new perm members. For France and UK its preferable to being forced into an EU seat. Only real objections from Russia and China. Oh, and the islamic world, which still doesnt get a permanent member - but who would be theres - Indonesia is best bet, but still a long way from the power level of the others.

	25-09-2003 00:48									#44
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US
EU
Russia
China
India
Japan
Arab League?

	25-09-2003 00:51									#45
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Abolish it.

	25-09-2003 00:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara US EU Russia China India Japan Arab League?

I think EU is too far from a common foreign and security policy to hold one seat, and I dont want to lose the unique UK voice on the council. Arab league is much farther from a common foreign policy than EU, and most of its members are not democracies. I think at this point its time to establish that any new Perm members must be democracies. Couldnt do that in '45, and theres no guarantees a country will stay one, but if the UN does not move in that direction it will certainly lose even more respect in the hyperpower. I would suggest Indonesia as the first Islamic perm member, but i dont think theyre ready yet.

	25-09-2003 01:01									#47
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U.N. troops should be respected all over the world.

Its not easy life for their soldiers. They are allowed to shoot only in self defense and they get placed in critical areas. Show a bit more respect for these guys okay?

	25-09-2003 01:23									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa U.N. troops should be respected all over the world. Its not easy life for their soldiers. They are allowed to shoot only in self defense and they get placed in critical areas. Show a bit more respect for these guys okay?

According to a recent resolution, it has become a crime of war to attack UN personnel. However, the resolution had to exclude a passus about the Hague Tribunal to avoid a US veto.

	25-09-2003 03:07									#49
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Well the idea of veto power does make sense. Why? We have to look at history. There is an argument that the League of Nations really failed when the US refused to join. It basically made the organization look like a joke when you had a world power not a part of this 'worldwide body'. It'd be like the People's Republic of China refusing to join the UN today.

In order to entice the great power to join and maybe give up some of their power, they had to offer them veto power. Otherwise, why bother?

	25-09-2003 03:16									#50
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But the veto makes the UN a joke. The veto-holder can just, well, veto anything they don't like.

It really is stupid.

	25-09-2003 03:19									#51
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having weighted votes might be better, but would only occur if nations like the US and China were weaker relative to the rest of the world than they are currently (and were at the UNs formation)

as it is right now, both nations would be foolish to join the UN without veto power

(weighted votes would have to depend upon population, economy, and military)

Jon Miller

	25-09-2003 03:23									#52
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quote: But the veto makes the UN a joke. The veto-holder can just, well, veto anything they don't like.

Perhaps, but without the veto, the UN doesn't exist. And the UN HAS done some very good things in its time. The Convention on the Law of the Seas, Tribunals for Yugoslavia and Rwanda, educational aid, mediation, etc.

	25-09-2003 03:40									#53
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Give a permanent seat to every country with more than 100 million population.

China
India
US
Indonesia
Pakistan
Russia
Bangladesh
Nigeria
Japan
Brazil
EU

	25-09-2003 03:59									#54
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At least give Japan a seat. They are(or were) paying the 2nd or 3rd highest dues to the UN. Surely that should get them SOME kind of special treatment.

	25-09-2003 05:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But the veto makes the UN a joke. The veto-holder can just, well, veto anything they don't like. Perhaps, but without the veto, the UN doesn't exist. And the UN HAS done some very good things in its time. The Convention on the Law of the Seas, Tribunals for Yugoslavia and Rwanda, educational aid, mediation, etc.

Yes, thats true.

If only we could put our politics aside for the good of humanity

Let's give any nation with a population above 5000 a seat.

	25-09-2003 08:06									#56
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quote: If only we could put our politics aside for the good of humanity

Our politics may BE what we think is for the good of humanity . After all, you believe that a more socialist world is better, I think a more capitalist world is better, and all that is politics.

quote: Let's give any nation with a population above 5000 a seat.

Nation or State?

And seat as a Permanent Member? Do you mean with all veto powers and everything?

Please clarify.

	25-09-2003 18:39									#57
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quote: Solution - require 2 negative votes by perm members to block a resolution. US wouldnt agree to this, so give them as a "hyperpower" super veto, so that US veto by itself blocks a resolution. Add Germany, Japan, and India making 8 permanent members. US should go along,as of course the new perm members. For France and UK its preferable to being forced into an EU seat. Only real objections from Russia and China. Oh, and the islamic world, which still doesnt get a permanent member - but who would be theres - Indonesia is best bet, but still a long way from the power level of the others.

the problem is, if the balance of power should ever change--say, like india becoming a hyperpower in the next century through some divine miracle--the "hyperpower veto" would prohibit any sort of change or rebalancing of the power in the security council.