24-09-2003 20:19									#1
	UN Security Council Permanent Members: What a BS idea Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The idea of permanent, veto-toting members is complete crap.

While I think that there should always be 5 members with veto powers, how can we say that they should be permanent? These five nations won't necessarily be in power. I mean, France is not one of the more significant nations anymore. Heck, it wasn't even that significant after WWII. I know the reasons each nation received permanent status, but is there any ability to change who the permanent member is? Why shouldn't a nation that proceeds to the forefront of the world (say like India) replace a nation that is declining in power (such as Russia may in the future)?

	24-09-2003 20:20									#2
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'cause those already in power have the veto, and are going to use it to keep their power.

	24-09-2003 20:21									#3
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If you remove the second, third, fourth and fifth words of the thread title I would agree with you.

	24-09-2003 20:23									#4
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when will people learn that the idea of the un isn't the bad part.

it's the implementation.

idea != implementation.

	24-09-2003 20:29									#5
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Try winning a world war, then you might think differently

	24-09-2003 20:32									#6
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What has that got to do with it?

	24-09-2003 20:32									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Try winning a world war, then you might think differently

So then France is the consilation prize?

	24-09-2003 20:33									#8
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Vetoes make sense. Otherwise, there would be no reason for a great power to accept the validity of the UN. His vote would not be properly weighted due to economic, population, and geography factors.

As for France, they are now #6 in the economic scales and don't have any geographic or population reason to be a council member. The UK is a very close #7, but is more important geographically. One of those seats should be redistributed to Japan or India--or maybe the European seats should be consolidated to one EU seat. I would be willing to increase the number on the security council to 6 to get both Japan and India in the door.

	24-09-2003 20:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet What has that got to do with it?

It was a completley spurious point aimed at a european neighbour. As WW2 finished nearly 60 years ago I thought it was my duty as a short sighted Brit to bring it up.

	24-09-2003 20:36									#10
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By what criteria is the UK "more important geographically" than France? I don't understand what you mean.

	24-09-2003 20:38									#11
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quote: It was a completley spurious point aimed at a european neighbour. As WW2 finished nearly 60 years ago I thought it was my duty as a short sighted Brit to bring it up.

Which European neighbor would that be?

I'm a red-blooded American

	24-09-2003 20:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger It was a completley spurious point aimed at a european neighbour. As WW2 finished nearly 60 years ago I thought it was my duty as a short sighted Brit to bring it up.

I see you got the smily thing all figured out at least.

	24-09-2003 20:38									#13
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Its got more carriers.

	24-09-2003 20:40									#14
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By virtue of the fact that the UK is an island nation, it has its finger in the affairs of more places than does France. This is somewhat less true since the UK gave up Hong Kong.

But I meant it more as a balancing factor between the UK and France, and not an overall argument about the validity of the seat on the council (I dismiss the validity of two seats on economic grounds). As far as I'm concerned, the members of the EU should fight for the seat allocated to them, or share it, as y'all see fit.

	24-09-2003 20:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Which European neighbor would that be? I'm a red-blooded American

my apologies, I'll just leave it in aimed at any passing objector to the UK's veto.

	24-09-2003 20:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DanS By virtue of the fact that the UK is an island nation, it has its finger in the affairs of more places than does France. This is somewhat less true since the UK gave up Hong Kong. But I meant it more as a balancing factor between the UK and France, and not an overall argument about the validity of the seat on the council (I dismiss the validity of two seats on economic grounds). As far as I'm concerned, the members of the EU should fight for the seat allocated to them, or share it, as y'all see fit.

You share yours with the NAFTA countries then

	24-09-2003 20:44									#17
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Again, as I said, I don't care who has the seat in the EU. France, the UK, or Germany. Makes no difference to me.

Besides, sharing our seat with the other NAFTA countries is a daft idea.

	24-09-2003 20:47									#18
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Well I think sharing the UK's veto with luxembourg and Belgium is a daft idea.

	24-09-2003 20:49									#19
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Good for you. Figure it out yourselves.

The fact remains that having both the #6 and #7 economies in the club (and #21 and #22 in terms of population, respectively), especially when they're geographically colocated, doesn't make much sense.

	24-09-2003 20:50									#20
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I think we should challenge the French and Germans to a cricket match to settle this!

	24-09-2003 20:51									#21
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I fail to see how geographical location has anything to do with it. Russai is next to China. Russia is an economic basket case. If Mexico suddenly gets rich quick will you share your veto with them

	24-09-2003 20:53									#22
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It wouldn't make sense to have an "EU" seat at the UN until the EU really was one country and not the disfunctional mess it currently is.

	24-09-2003 20:55									#23
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Russia is a special case, since it has the largest landmass and abuts the most countries of any in the world (or whatever). Mexico is an interesting possibility, but I don't think they will ever make it into a great power. Currently #11 in population and #13 in economy. Brazil could make a case based on geography and population.

	24-09-2003 20:57									#24
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I think we should challenge the French and Germans to a cricket match to settle this!

The embarrasment if we lost would be unbearable.

	24-09-2003 20:58									#25
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Maybe if you made it a Rugby match it would be a fairer fight.

	24-09-2003 21:00									#26
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china's also right next to japan-- why should they both have it? co-location, right?

	24-09-2003 21:02									#27
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China is #1 in population and #2 in economy. Japan is #3 in economy and #10 in population. I think that's a pretty strong argument, even though I agree that the colocation with a shoe-in member is a minus in Japan's column.

	24-09-2003 21:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Good for you. Figure it out yourselves. The fact remains that having both the #6 and #7 economies in the club (and #21 and #22 in terms of population, respectively), especially when they're geographically colocated, doesn't make much sense.

This veto point deserves to be discussed, but the geographico-economic criteria is far from being the only one to be considered.

	24-09-2003 21:03									#29
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Chinas economy is no 2 in terms of raw numbers it is no where near that of Japans in technological capability

	24-09-2003 21:05									#30
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I have three basic criteria, in order of importance:

1) Economy;
2) Geography; and
3) Population.

I would be willing to consider other criteria, of course. But these 3 criteria are the primary determinants of power.