24-09-2003 22:05									#31
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in over 200 years, we've had one catholic. catholics are quite a large fraction of the population, as well.

jfk's catholicism didn't factor as much because a) he was going against nixon, b) he flat out said he wouldn't listen to the pope if a conflict arose, c) he was young, charming, and hip, d) he was also at a time of great change--for a more liberal viewpoint.

clark's going against bush, who is a thousand times more charismatic than nixon (well, who wouldn't be, 'cept maybe dukakis or gore?), hasn't said b) (he should--like machiavelli says, a leader should be prepared to go to hell for his country), and c) has far too thin skin, i wager, to really last, unless he develops a shell fast.
there's also a great change...but it seems to be shifting more conservative rather than liberal.

	24-09-2003 22:06									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why should a minority get to decide the President of the whole United States?

Because the constitution says so?

This country is a democratic republic. It's desiged to protect both the will of the majority from the few and the will of the minority from mob rule.

	24-09-2003 22:07									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The fact that you feel that the leader of a nation should be determined by a large number of people in isolated areas...

Do I think the leader of the nation should be determined by a majority f the people in the country?


YES!!!!!!

	24-09-2003 22:08									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Because the constitution says so?

That's not an argument against changing the Constitution. It's a ethical question, not a legal one.

	24-09-2003 22:09									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Powell's wife says she'd divorce him if he runs... I doubt he will risk his marriage.

I think he would make a good president, I hope that in 2008 things change.

	24-09-2003 22:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I think he would make a good president, I hope that in 2008 things change.

The ultra-conservative wing of Republican Party would never stand for Powell. Just look at how they think of Arnie.

	24-09-2003 22:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Do I think the leader of the nation should be determined by a majority f the people in the country? YES!!!!!!

Most of the time the person with most votes in total does win. There has only been a couple of times when this has not happen. Bush is not the only example of a President winning the Electoral Collage vote but loses the popular vote.

	24-09-2003 22:12									#38
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Three Words why I support the electorial college:

Regional Information Shock

--

It's why we have towns, cities, districts, counties, and state... Because I don't want San Francisco telling New York how to behave anymore than I want advice Florida on how to conduct a election. Similarly, I would never vote for a President that would say "if elected I will give everyone living in a major metropolis tax deductions"...

more to come I need a smoke

	24-09-2003 22:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Do I think the leader of the nation should be determined by a majority f the people in the country? YES!!!!!!

Then we'd have no President because a majority of the people don't vote.

Hmmm... maybe that's not such a bad idea.

	24-09-2003 22:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Three Words why I support the electorial college: Regional Information Shock

I understand that sentiment, which is why I'm curious as to why you support a system which actually encourages this as opposed to a popular system.

As it is now, a candidate only needs win majorities in a handful of key states, rather than seek every vote he can get anywhere in the country. When was the last time a candidate campagined in Hawaii or Alaska or Wyoming? Right now they spend all their time going after the big ten states which have half the population in the U.S. The other half of the country is treated like red-headed step-children.

	24-09-2003 22:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Then we'd have no President because a majority of the people don't vote. Hmmm... maybe that's not such a bad idea.

Now you're catching on.

	24-09-2003 22:40									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So I was watching MSNBC today and it showed Bush's current approval ratings are 50% with 47% disapproving and 3% don't know/don't care. To compare at this time back in the 1992 elections Bush Sr. held around a 60% approval rating and he still lost. So what do you folks think, have the Democratic candidates drawn blood and is Bush vulnerable? Also the polls right now are showing Bush getting beat in theoretical match ups with either Kerry or Clark but winning if it's Dean he's running against. Clearly, the America population likes Kerry and Clark (though I think Clark has gotten a short-term boost because he's the new guy. Once that wears off Clark's numbers most likely won't be so high.) but doesn't like Dean. The really sad part is the Democratic party's base is left wing voters so it's likely Dean will get the nomination, because he's the left most candidate running, meaning we're going to get stuck with Bush for another four years.

The polls are absolutely irrelevant at this point. These network polls and the like have no bearing because about 50% of the population does not vote in the first place. How many of these respondents will actually make it to the polls?

All the Democratic candidates at this point look good because nobody is really paying attention except for the activists and the like. How many rank and file voters can articulate a discernable difference between the candidates aside from the fact that Kerry is called a war hero, Dean's an outsider and Liberman's a Jew? I expect the numbers to change moderately one way or the other after the first few primaries and radically when the Democrats start realizing that Dean is organized and crazy enough to possibly get the nomination.

A Dean Presidential campaign with the reluctant support of the party leadership would be, IMHO, the worst thing to happen to the party in a long time.

	24-09-2003 22:40									#43
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The thing I hate about California is that so little attention is given to our biggest industry (Ag) and is instead given to industry and hollywood. We elect stupid democratic governors because the "majority" of the people live in LA or SF and that is all they really care about. My water, my food, my job, my movies, and they never really concern themselves with the fact that their water, their food, their jobs, and their movies are coming from the places where they sheit on (well not really the movies, but anyway)...

Pete Wilson at least had the respect for farmers (which are dwindling in numbers) to give them what they needed. Yet, because a majority of the people in California live in two cities, the rest are going to be ignored?

Ag will slowly fade out of California as the manufacturing industry creeps into the corridors into the valley (i.e. Vacaville, Fairfeild, Gilroy, Bakersfeild). Food production will drop and not only will the state starve but so will the world. Why? Because the governor is elected by popular vote, and popular vote does not guarentee social welfare and well-being, it only guarentees selfishness.

	24-09-2003 22:55									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Japher popular vote does not guarentee social welfare and well-being, it only guarentees selfishness.

So you're opposed to democracy? That's unAmerican.

Anyway, the governor doesn't make the laws, he executes them. The state legislature makes the laws, and they come from all over the state.

All states are agricultural states. In all states, Ag is diminishing in the amount of land it is using (while becoming ever more productive on less land). Plus, if the market has a better use for the land, as a supporter of capitalism, why don't you see this as a better use?

	24-09-2003 22:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Bush will lose... there's no doubt in my mind. It's just a question of who will beat him.

Man I can remember a year ago when Gov. Grey Davis won election where 70% of the population hated his guts simply because the other party couldn't get their act together. If Davis can out smear his opposition then I suspect Bush will be able to smear a flip flopper like Dean in no time.

	24-09-2003 23:00									#46
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Democracy is unAmerican. Republicanism, on the other hand, is as American as Apple Pie and Hipocracy. Didn't they teach you anything in Civics, Comrade?

	24-09-2003 23:01									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Man I can remember a year ago when Gov. Grey Davis won election where 70% of the population hated his guts simply because the other party couldn't get their act together. If Davis can out smear his opposition then I suspect Bush will be able to smear a flip flopper like Dean in no time.

The 200 million dollar+ War chest doesn't hurt either

	24-09-2003 23:06									#48
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Bush will be beaten because:

1. His pontificating on the Iraq issue has been completely, utterly and absolutely discredited.

2. Tax cuts don't work.

3. He has failed in the War on Terror.

4. He has made the US look like Satan and alienated almost all its friends.

	24-09-2003 23:07									#49
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quote: I understand that sentiment, which is why I'm curious as to why you support a system which actually encourages this as opposed to a popular system.

As jack_www stated most of the time popular vote wins out. Yet, in a close call popular vote is less robust. I don't know the demographics, but lets say the majority of the population lived on the East Coast (I think they do) and a canidate from Maryland ran on a platform that included federal funds for disadter relief with no premium for hurricanes only, and no disaster relief other acts of god such as tornados, earthquakes, or texan stupidity (just kidding sloww)?

We are a large country with diverse needs in concerns as a majority and as local majorities. Our counts should amount to one vote and not to many, as we are electing one president.

quote: So you're opposed to democracy?

Don't put words in my mouth

quote: Anyway, the governor doesn't make the laws, he executes them. The state legislature makes the laws, and they come from all over the state.

The governor example was just an example and nothing more. Yet, some people say the president doesn't make the laws and he just executes them.... The executive member (the governor, president, mayor) is there as an axis for the balance of power. Checks and Balances man, I think you know that. The governor can make the laws and does when you have a stupid senate.

quote: Plus, if the market has a better use for the land, as a supporter of capitalism, why don't you see this as a better use?

Yes, I am a supporter of capitalism. Yet, I am also a supporter for Lazze-faire politics, especially in the corporate world. If the market has better use for the land then good, use it for the better use. Yet, in many cases the government dictates the market, as with Ag zoned land and water allocations which limit these zones.

Note: I have been eyeing the central valley for sometime as a place for emerging biotechs. Seems that it is a great place to go because the city water systems can handle the large amount of waste generated by the biotech industry, since those water facilities are use to handling contaminated water from the Ag industry...

	24-09-2003 23:24									#50
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It's not over for Bush yet, even if it look like he is hurting. Reagan and Clinton both had very low approval ratings at their point in their first terms and both coasted to victory. Polls this early are not a good predictor of the outcome of the election. Although, if the Unemployment rate doesn't decrease and we have made no progress on Iraq, Bush will have a hard time winning.

Another thing to keep in mind is that money matter, and Bush is raising ALOT of it, and he won't have to go through an expensive primary campaign to spen money either.

	24-09-2003 23:30									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Bush will be beaten because: 1. His pontificating on the Iraq issue has been completely, utterly and absolutely discredited.

Most people don't care if he was wrong on Iraq. The issue of dead soldiers in Iraq matters more than the lack of WMDs.

quote: 2. Tax cuts don't work.

He's weak on the economy, yes, but will most people care to learn anything about the cuts beyond "They were tax cuts for the rich!"?

quote: 3. He has failed in the War on Terror.

As long as he's "bombing Sand Farmers" (to quote my roomate) and there isn't another attack on the continental U.S., it's successful in most people's eyes. The question isn't is he failing or not. The question is whether Bush will be able to bang the drum on that issue come election time.[/quote]

quote: 4. He has made the US look like Satan and alienated almost all its friends.

When will the rest of the world realize that

a) Foreign Policy isn't that important to American Voters when Election time arrives
b) We just don't care what the rest of the world thinks. As long as the rest of the world is portrayed as Frano-German Eurocoms who hate America, Crazy "Islamofascists" or Communists in the media, we simply won't give a damn. Americans do not care what you think.

	25-09-2003 00:14									#52
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The real purpose behind the system was to prevent the masses from directly controlling the government and putting in their wishes. The whole point was to get people into the office of the President who knew what they were doing. At least that is what the founding fathers had in mind.

Today though Electoral Collage votes are now determined by the popular vote in each state by law(state not federal law). Some states though dont have such a law but they vote according to the popular vote.

	25-09-2003 00:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www The whole point was to get people into the office of the President who knew what they were doing.

Well that certainly backfired, didn't it.

	25-09-2003 00:50									#54
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quote: Actually, on the positions I've seen them take, Clark is more to the left that Dean. Dean isn't a left-wing candidate.

How so? Which leftist positions has Clark taken? I can't figure out what the hell he stands for.

	25-09-2003 00:59									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo How so? Which leftist positions has Clark taken? I can't figure out what the hell he stands for.

Funny, I can't figure out what the hell Dean stands for, given how many differing positions he's taken, depending on who he's trying to appeal to.

	25-09-2003 01:04									#56
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I'm not saying that Dean is a left-wing candidate. I think he's pretty clearly a centrist. But AFAIK, Clark has basically made no specifics on what he wants to do, in constrast to Dean. The devil you know and all that.

	25-09-2003 01:14									#57
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Well that certainly backfired, didn't it.so true

	25-09-2003 01:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I will vote for Bush

you bastard

	25-09-2003 01:47									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Ag will slowly fade out of California as the manufacturing industry creeps into the corridors into the valley (i.e. Vacaville, Fairfeild, Gilroy, Bakersfeild). Food production will drop and not only will the state starve but so will the world. Why? Because the governor is elected by popular vote, and popular vote does not guarentee social welfare and well-being, it only guarentees selfishness.

Now this is a good example of a slippery slope argument guys.

	25-09-2003 02:32									#60
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I was wargaming 2004 today with a moderate Republican friend of mine, and we agreed that if there were no huge surprises in the next 14 months, if the Dems nominate Clark, he would beat Bush.

Look at the states that are likely to flip from 2000. Bush could easily lose Florida, New Hampshire, Arkansas, and West Virginia if Clark ran. Ohio, Missouri, Indiana, and Kentucky would likely stay red, but not without some effort by the Republicans.

The Dems could lose Pennsylvania... but everything else is in that "maybe, but probably not category." Michigan, Wisconsin, Oregon... likely to stay blue, but the Dems would have to work at it.

The big questions: New York and California. Could be wildcards due to 9/11 and the recall respectively; however, I'd still be very surprised to see Bush defeat Clark in those states.

If the Dems nominate someone else, it's anyone's ballgame. But it they nominate Clark, and there are no major "October surprises", Clark will be elected President in 2004. Take it to the bank.