24-09-2003 23:17									#1
	No WMD in Iraq Increase the size of your Attachments

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3135932.stm

No weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq by the group looking for them, according to a Bush administration source who has spoken to the BBC.
This will be the conclusion of the Iraq Survey Group's interim report, the source told the presenter of BBC television's Daily Politics show, Andrew Neil


Something of a surprise

	24-09-2003 23:20									#2
	Re: No WMD in Iraq Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin Something of a surprise

NOT! I was surprised in April. Now I'm just cynical.

	24-09-2003 23:22									#3
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The war was still just on humanitarian grounds.

	24-09-2003 23:23									#4
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The war was still just on humanitarian grounds.

Not before it was started it wasn't.

	24-09-2003 23:31									#5
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Well it's no surprise to me.

He practically told Saddam what he was going to do, a year and a half before he did it.

Ergo Saddam had enough time to move all of his weapons to safe places, to humiliate the Americans.

	24-09-2003 23:35									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Ergo Saddam had enough time to move all of his weapons to safe places, to humiliate the Americans.

The report says there's no evidence that anything was there to have ben moved.

They were talking to the 1st head of the UN inspection teams. He thinks that they got everything, but that Iraq did not want to be seen as having completely disarmed for fear of being attacked by Iran.

	24-09-2003 23:35									#7
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the biggest justification for the war, pre-war, wasn't liberation or humanitarian.

	24-09-2003 23:37									#8
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quote: The report says there's no evidence that anything was there to have ben moved.

Traces can be hidden pretty well if you have ruski, syrian and iranian experts helping you.

quote: They were talking to the 1st head of the UN inspection teams. He thinks that they got everything, but that Iraq did not want to be seen as having completely disarmed for fear of being attacked by Iran.

Possible.

I would buy into them having very little, and exaggurating.

I don't believe they had none for the last 4 years.

I think they began destroying it starting with sept. 2001.

	24-09-2003 23:40									#9
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quote: Ergo Saddam had enough time to move all of his weapons to safe places, to humiliate the Americans.

What about all the support structures? Labs? Factories?

Not only can they not find weapons, they can't even find vestiges of weapons being manufactured in the past. Sounds like a pretty thorough hiding job....

	24-09-2003 23:44									#10
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quote: What about all the support structures? Labs? Factories?

They were all dual use.

It was always something like a large bottling plant, with 1 or 2 rooms dealing with something illegal.

It's quite easy to clear out the 2 rooms and sanitize them.

quote: Not only can they not find weapons, they can't even find vestiges of weapons being manufactured in the past. Sounds like a pretty thorough hiding job....

This actually supports my claims, since we know for sure that they have been manufacturing weapons in the past. If we can't even find traces of that, it means some history was erased.

	24-09-2003 23:48									#11
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If they haven't been manufacturing them since the 80s, there wouldn't be any trace left in many place. These weapons do degrade. Even if they had anything left, it would have been utterly useless.

Anyway, the proof is against those who say he had them.

	24-09-2003 23:50									#12
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quote: It's quite easy to clear out the 2 rooms and sanitize them.

Well, that explains everything then.

Wow, then their thoroughness is absolutely staggering, considering the high tech means that the US has at its disposal to detect even the faintest traces of bio and nerve agents.


Many of these agents are detected in parts per
billion. You can't tell anybody that the apparatus for mass WMD production simply vanished into thin air.

	24-09-2003 23:51									#13
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quote: Ergo Saddam had enough time to move all of his weapons to safe places, to humiliate the Americans.

This theory falls apart on the grounds that Saddam is not a complete moron.

And I'll just add my usual point that gases and germs are mediocre battle weapons and lousy terrorist weapons.

	25-09-2003 00:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Many of these agents are detected in parts per billion. You can't tell anybody that the apparatus for mass WMD production simply vanished into thin air.

And they're unreliable as hell in those ranges.

	25-09-2003 00:17									#15
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But at this point, if even ppb levels of WMD were discovered, it would be in the report and probably in the press.

	25-09-2003 00:17									#16
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quote: If they haven't been manufacturing them since the 80s, there wouldn't be any trace left in many place. These weapons do degrade. Even if they had anything left, it would have been utterly useless.

quote: Anyway, the proof is against those who say he had them.

No it's not. Not in this case.

In this case the UN has specifically ordered the burden of proof on Iraq- to prove unequivocally that they don't possess the weapons.

Instead Iraq did everything in its power to avoid such a proof or even a hint, beyond generalized statemenst by their information ministers.

quote: Well, that explains everything then. Wow, then their thoroughness is absolutely staggering, considering the high tech means that the US has at its disposal to detect even the faintest traces of bio and nerve agents.

I'm sure Iraq had excellent tools lent to them by the Ruskis. I'm also sure that 2 years of cleaning started around sept 11, got Iraq pretty clean.

Also if you are somehow sure that the 6 months since the war, are enough to thoroughly check anything more than 1% of Iraq, you are very mistaken.

The weapons were reported to be dispursed, hidden in small quantities all around the country. A missile in a farm. A box in a far village.

All you need is to remove those, sanitize the area, and destroy the original files detailing the previous hiding places.

quote: Many of these agents are detected in parts per billion. You can't tell anybody that the apparatus for mass WMD production simply vanished into thin air.

They had 2 years to vanish into what ever coffers in neighbouring countries or just far away villages.

	25-09-2003 00:19									#17
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I don't want to talk about this any more

And Siro, take that stupid CIVII Democracy Game banner off your profile, it's really messing with my screen

	25-09-2003 00:22									#18
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quote: This theory falls apart on the grounds that Saddam is not a complete moron.

On the countrary. Only were a Saddam a complete moron, would he leave the evidence justifying the Americans in place to be caught.

The germans began destroying evidence of the holocaust. They started it too late, and enough evidence was caught.

Still, an ever growing population today says that the evidence were mis enterpreted by the evil zionists and americans.

quote: And I'll just add my usual point that gases and germs are mediocre battle weapons and lousy terrorist weapons.

not true. they can wreak a havoc in sufficient quantities.

And in any case, they are very effective towrads creating mass hysteria that can paralyze a country.

	25-09-2003 00:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Anyway, the proof is against those who say he had them. No it's not. Not in this case.

The UN is not the arbiter of what is or is not a philosophic proof. Legally, Iraq may have been responsible for prooving it had gotten rid of everything. But here, now, in this agument, you need proof that he had them.

	25-09-2003 00:27									#20
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Thanks, anyway, I agree with Siro

	25-09-2003 00:57									#21
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quote: I'm sure Iraq had excellent tools lent to them by the Ruskis. I'm also sure that 2 years of cleaning started around sept 11, got Iraq pretty clean.

quote: Also if you are somehow sure that the 6 months since the war, are enough to thoroughly check anything more than 1% of Iraq, you are very mistaken

quote: They had 2 years to vanish into what ever coffers in neighbouring countries or just far away villages

Even assuming that's true, that still leaves out the captured scientists and technicians. Why havent they led the coalition or past inspection regimes to "smoking guns"?

If weapons were hidden as you assert, why hasn't anyone, six-month's post-war, led the coalition to
one, single cache of stored materials or even brought forward documentation that supports this claim.

His WMD program ended long before 9/11. Too bad we believe the BS foisted on us.

	25-09-2003 01:00									#22
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quote: On the countrary. Only were a Saddam a complete moron, would he leave the evidence justifying the Americans in place to be caught.

So he decided to sacrifice his regime and possibly his life in order to make the Americans look bad? No way. I have to wonder, if the Iraqis were able to hide their weapons with such superhuman efficiency, why they were not able to conduct a better defence.

quote: not true. they can wreak a havoc in sufficient quantities.

So can bombs and bullets. So can wooden spoons.

quote: And in any case, they are very effective towrads creating mass hysteria that can paralyze a country.

Mass hysteria orchestrated by orange alerts, duct tape and a media ever-willing to hype up the 'threat'.

	25-09-2003 01:00									#23
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When Saddam's son-in-laws feld to Jordan they were debriefed in Amman by the UN and the US. They state that they had destroyed almost all of their weapons. What they were trying to do was to have a program to start a program, so if attacked by Iran, they could start producing weapons again.

Then the idiots went back to Iraq and got themselves killed.

	25-09-2003 01:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: And I'll just add my usual point that gases and germs are mediocre battle weapons and lousy terrorist weapons. not true. they can wreak a havoc in sufficient quantities.

*In sufficient quantities* yes. But those quantities are pretty huge. The claim that Iraq could have destroyed the evidence by clearing out one or two rooms in a bottle plant, and the claim that they had sufficient quantities to be militarily relevant, are not really compatible.


It should be pretty damned obvious that Iraq didn't have WMD, and that the US knew it, IMO. If Iraq did have WMD then the military would have used them in the face of the destruction of their regieme. The US, being aware of this, would not send their troops into battle with the possibility of taking a couple of thousand casualties.

(In fact it's pretty much a rule that the US only attacks countries which are harmless to it. The dangerous ones they buy off.)

	25-09-2003 01:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Curiosity It should be pretty damned obvious that Iraq didn't have WMD, and that the US knew it, IMO. If Iraq did have WMD then the military would have used them in the face of the destruction of their regieme. The US, being aware of this, would not send their troops into battle with the possibility of taking a couple of thousand casualties.

so true. so true.

	25-09-2003 01:06									#26
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Curiousity, the Iraqis were more than aware that their chem weapons were not capable of doing significant damage to the Americans, and would only invite nuclear retaliation. That's why they didn't use them in the 2nd Gulf War (the 1st being against Iran). America's chem defence capacity was such that there was no point in wasting those weapons on us.

	25-09-2003 01:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov In this case the UN has specifically ordered the burden of proof on Iraq- to prove unequivocally that they don't possess the weapons.

[Iraq]

*looks around*

Ummm.. what can I say? I dont have it
[/Iraq]

	25-09-2003 02:06									#28
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How do you prove the non-existence of something that doesn't exist?

	25-09-2003 02:10									#29
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It looks as if the problem will now be for those Western politicans who justified the war on the grounds of the threat from WMD, and the intelligence agencies who provided the 'evidence'

	25-09-2003 02:11									#30
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So El Presidente lied in order to gain support for a war of imperialist aggression. This is new how?