25-09-2003 19:50									#1
	Americans! Defend Your Right to Vote! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Call your representitive and demand that they support The Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2003 (H.R. 2239).

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.2239:
http://holt.house.gov/display2.cfm?id=6282&type=Home

This act "requires all voting systems to produce a voter-verified paper record for use in manual audits."

	25-09-2003 19:52									#2
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* Bans the use of undisclosed software and wireless communications devices in voting systems, and limits electronic communication to outgoing reports of vote totals only.


* Requires all voting systems to meet these requirements in time for the general election in November 2004. Jurisdictions that feel their new computer systems may not be able to do meet this deadline may use a paper system as an interim measure (at federal expense) in the November 2004 election.


* Requires that electronic voting system be provided for persons with disabilities by January 1, 2006 -- one year earlier than currently required by HAVA. Like the voting machines for non-disabled voters, those used by disabled voters must also provide a mechanism for voter-verification, though not necessarily a paper trail. Jurisdictions unable to meet this requirement by the deadline must give disabled voters the option to use the interim paper system with the assistance of an aide of their choosing.


* Requires mandatory surprise recounts in .5% of domestic jurisdictions and .5% of overseas jurisdictions.

	25-09-2003 19:56									#4
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i'd just be happy if they bought those electronic voting machines from people who knew what they were doing, and not using f'n access.

	25-09-2003 19:58									#5
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Even if there was no way to audit the system?

Paper record seems like a great idea. Then someone can actually go back and have an independent recount in controversial situations.

	25-09-2003 20:00									#6
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i mean, sure, go ahead, do these reforms. i don't care so much about them, honestly.

i'm just angry that this is yet another case of governments or organizations who what brand-spanking new technology, and are unwilling to actually find someone who can do it right.

	25-09-2003 20:05									#7
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Sounds good.

	25-09-2003 20:11									#8
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I totally agree with this bill. I'm surprised Che and I have finally found a political bill we both can agree on.

	25-09-2003 20:35									#9
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This sounds great to me.

	25-09-2003 20:59									#10
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:b

	25-09-2003 21:02									#11
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quote: * Bans the use of undisclosed software and wireless communications devices in voting systems, and limits electronic communication to outgoing reports of vote totals only.

now that i read a bit more on it, i like this one in particular. no wireless.

as for no undisclosed software, even better--means the developer, if they use a crummy base, like access, will get a lot of flak, like they deserve.

	25-09-2003 21:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara * Bans the use of undisclosed software and wireless communications devices in voting systems, and limits electronic communication to outgoing reports of vote totals only.

Software needs to be subject to third-party audit and accuracy verification, but banning secure wireless and electronic communication is assinine, and worthy of Luddites. Multi-billion dollar commerce can be carried out over SSL2 and TLS, there's no reason other than ignorance that votes shouldn't be. Wireless can also be adequately secured for purposes of vote tallies.

quote: * Requires all voting systems to meet these requirements in time for the general election in November 2004. Jurisdictions that feel their new computer systems may not be able to do meet this deadline may use a paper system as an interim measure (at federal expense) in the November 2004 election.

Cool, let's go to hanging chads again, because the Luddites impose requirements that can't be met in every precinct between whenever the bill passes and the election.

quote: * Requires mandatory surprise recounts in .5% of domestic jurisdictions and .5% of overseas jurisdictions.

And thus exceeds the Federal authority regarding elections under the US Constitution which reserves to the states the time, place and manner of choosing...

	25-09-2003 21:27									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Even if there was no way to audit the system? Paper record seems like a great idea. Then someone can actually go back and have an independent recount in controversial situations.

Florida, anyone?

Do you think that if someone's going to play with the software count (meaning they have access to the machines) they can't also forge and substitute paper?

Or better yet, create the appearance of fraud by your opponent and invalidate votes that way?

	25-09-2003 21:30									#14
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It's not about Luddism, Micahel, it's about the crappy, flawed software that allows people to waltz right in and change the numbers that is being used in 37 states. The companies are aware of the problem, and rather than fixing it, they are mounting a PR campaign instead.

	25-09-2003 21:31									#15
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I'm all for this since I suspect all you computer geeks here would mess with my vote and we end up having Che turning America communist a lot quicker than it already is

	25-09-2003 21:33									#16
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I'm afraid I have no representitive in the American Congress.

	25-09-2003 21:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Software needs to be subject to third-party audit and accuracy verification, but banning secure wireless and electronic communication is assinine, and worthy of Luddites. Multi-billion dollar commerce can be carried out over SSL2 and TLS, there's no reason other than ignorance that votes shouldn't be. Wireless can also be adequately secured for purposes of vote tallies.

Good point. There's no reason to assume that wireless connections will not be secure. They are more difficult to secure, but it certainly can be done.

	25-09-2003 21:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Good point. There's no reason to assume that wireless connections will not be secure. They are more difficult to secure, but it certainly can be done.

Says people who all say the government can't be trusted to do anything right.

	25-09-2003 21:54									#19
	Re: Americans! Defend Your Right to Vote! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Call your representitive and demand that they support The Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2003 (H.R. 2239). http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.2239: http://holt.house.gov/display2.cfm?id=6282&type=Home This act "requires all voting systems to produce a voter-verified paper record for use in manual audits."

Just one vote. I heard that the LA country will be buying voting machines that have both an paper and electronic record of each vote cast when they do get around to buying the things.

	25-09-2003 22:01									#20
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interesting bill, silly thread title.

	25-09-2003 22:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not about Luddism, Micahel, it's about the crappy, flawed software that allows people to waltz right in and change the numbers that is being used in 37 states. The companies are aware of the problem, and rather than fixing it, they are mounting a PR campaign instead.

Yes, it is about Luddism - "I herd that internet stuff got viruses from them pedofile chat room things an I don't wanna get me no damn pedofile virus from voting so I don't want no damn electronic doodads giving me no damn virus. Mah great grandpappy voted on a piece of paper, so's if it's good enough fer him it's good enough for ever'one."

If you have flawed software, then get some people outside the voting machine industry, who have adequate knowledge in DBs, security, digital sigs, SSL/TLS, etc. and create a set of secure, reliable current technology standards, and an audit/test program. It ain't that ****ing tough to do, but having a bunch of ignoramuses legislate prohibitions on using certain technologies at all is just typically assinine. Let the ignorant regulate what they don't understand - it's the American way!

	25-09-2003 22:16									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Says people who all say the government can't be trusted to do anything right.

So don't let government do it. At least not all of it.

Have a panel of IT experts known in the industry for their expertise develop a set of standards, whitepaper it for general and industry comment, and once approved, have your government employees (county and state voter types) implement their end, have the voting machine people implement their end, and have independent third-party technical audit groups verify both and record their results.

With wireless, it won't matter if you can crack it a day or two later by brute forcing it, because the seeds for your encryption will be different every election, and ideally, every precinct.

It's not that hard to do, except for those who don't know what they're doing, or who have another agenda.

	25-09-2003 22:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Says people who all say the government can't be trusted to do anything right.

The NSA can do it, the CIA and FBI and millitary can secure their communcations, why cant we do it with computer voting system? It does not have to be on the internet and it can be encripted where you would need a super computer and several days to creak it.
This law does not sound so good to me.