25-09-2003 22:46									#1
	Which would you chose? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You are the Germans in an emperor level game with 2 big continents and 2 smaller one civ continents. You have just created a great leader and you can chose either Leonardos Workshop or Sistine Chapel. Whichever one you don't chose is going to wind up on the other big continent and won't be "conquerable" for centuries. Which wonder would you chose?

My gut tells me Sistine Chapel, which will help my republic during the coming wars to dominate my continent (which has 3 other empires having of 10+ cities). My head says Leo will put me one step toward a golden age and make a cheaper transition to cavalry.

After all was said and done, I got Sistine, and the romans got Leo the next turn.

	25-09-2003 22:51									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Not enough info. Do you have lots of cities and few luxs? Do you have cath in place or will have soon?
Do you have massive numbers of units to upgrade?
Most likely Sistines is preferable, but it is hard to say here. In the absence of data, I would say Leo only saves money and that is not enough. But if you are going to do a lot of fighting and may not make cath in many cities........

	25-09-2003 23:16									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

As a non-religious civ, almost always Leo's. Only if I can't trade for most of the luxuries would I build the Sistene Chapel which is generally not useful until Sanitation.

	25-09-2003 23:23									#4
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I pretty much would agree with Nor Me. Sistine is good for religious civs and can be good for others, but I generally don't have cathedrals built for quite a while as a non-religious civ. Only if I have less than three luxuries and not much chance of trading or "acquiring" more luxuries would I prioritize Sistine over Leos.

	26-09-2003 00:07									#5
	More info on my situation Increase the size of your Attachments

The continent I'm on has spice, furs, and gems. I have two luxuries in my territory and traded for the third.

"Germany" is blessed with many rivers. The shields I didn't spend on aquaducts went to cathedrals.

Trade across oceans is still 3-6 techs away.

**Question**

If an AI civ gets a tech in a trade that it is researching, do the accumulated beakers get transfered to the next tech they research? I ask because it seems that the AI researches the new tech REALLY fast after a trade.

I've noticed that if I abandon a captured city, I seem to get a diplomatic penalty as if I razed it. Do I still get this penalty if the original owner is eliminated? Or if I'm able to convert the lone russian in these cities into a german before abandoning?

Last edited by Turrosh Mak on 26-09-2003 at 00:30

	26-09-2003 00:34									#6
	Re: More info on my situation Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Turrosh Mak **Question** If an AI civ gets a tech in a trade that it is researching, do the accumulated beakers get transfered to the next tech they research? I ask because it seems that the AI researches the new tech REALLY fast after a trade.

No. If it did then the value an AI would pay for the second tech would drop once you sold it the first (the one it's working on). It doesn't, so it can't.

On the original Q, Leo's is handy when you've got a nasty knight-level UU bearing down on you and your best chance is gunpowder and upgrade...

Sistine's may not pay immediately, but with it a cath, mkt, temple and three luxuries will keep a size 12 city happy on Emperor. Later it can pay by holding down war weariness and post-Sanitation grumbling. You've got rivers so it'll pay without aquas and you were already building caths, so I'd take Sistines in those conditions. Better culture too.

	26-09-2003 00:37									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me As a non-religious civ, almost always Leo's. Only if I can't trade for most of the luxuries would I build the Sistene Chapel which is generally not useful until Sanitation.

I'd say the Sistine is very useful pre-Sanitation if overseas trade is several techs away, local lux are limited and you've loadsa river cities.

	26-09-2003 00:44									#8
	Tired of ads?

I'd have gone with the Sistine. But I'm a noted fanatic about keeping my people happy. Still, with only 3 luxuries available (I assume the one you don't control presently will be coming under your control soon?), and shields already invested in Cathedrals, I think the Sistine makes sense long-term.

Leos is useful for mass upgrades, in particular horsemen -> knights -> cavalry. If you don't have a large horseman force lying around to upgrade (or plan to build one), though, Leos isn't as powerful. Sure, you will still save money upgrading spears to pikes to muskets, etc., but those upgrades can typically be done piecemeal. It's different than upgrading 20+ horsies at once to roll over somebody.

-Arrian

	26-09-2003 01:47									#9
	Re: More info on my situation Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Turrosh Mak I've noticed that if I abandon a captured city, I seem to get a diplomatic penalty as if I razed it. Do I still get this penalty if the original owner is eliminated? Or if I'm able to convert the lone russian in these cities into a german before abandoning?

I've heard that you don't get the penalty if your citizens are in the majority.

Overseas trade cannot be that far away if you can build Sistene's and your not likely to have that many cathedrals up before you get it.

But if you can't get a large benefit out of Leo's, it's worth building Sistene's for the post-sanitation benefit. If you already have large numbers of knights then defensive units are not that useful and you'll only be facing one upgrade before Sanitation.

	26-09-2003 04:21									#10
	Re: More info on my situation Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Turrosh Mak If an AI civ gets a tech in a trade that it is researching, do the accumulated beakers get transfered to the next tech they research? I ask because it seems that the AI researches the new tech REALLY fast after a trade.

I believe the answer to this question is no, as stated earlier, however, I have noticed a disturbing effect.

I will look at my military advisior and check out info about a potential trade partner by clicking through the little things the advisior says. Belowe him, it writes something to the effect of: Germany: Despotism (or what ever it says, it mentions the form of government). I then trade that civ "The Republic". I go back to the military advisor screen just after making the trade (note, I did NOT end the turn) and it says that Germany is now in Anarchy. How? What the hell just happened? The AI should have to wait unitl its their turn before they go into anarchy.

What's up with this?

	26-09-2003 04:36									#11
	Re: Re: More info on my situation Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by donegeal I believe the answer to this question is no, as stated earlier, however, I have noticed a disturbing effect. I will look at my military advisior and check out info about a potential trade partner by clicking through the little things the advisior says. Belowe him, it writes something to the effect of: Germany: Despotism (or what ever it says, it mentions the form of government). I then trade that civ "The Republic". I go back to the military advisor screen just after making the trade (note, I did NOT end the turn) and it says that Germany is now in Anarchy. How? What the hell just happened? The AI should have to wait unitl its their turn before they go into anarchy. What's up with this?

I haven't ever seen that before. The only thing I can think of is the little dialog box that pops up when you receive the tech allowing a new government that asks you whether you want to start the revolution right away. I didn't know it pops up on another's turn though so I could be off base.

	26-09-2003 09:04									#12
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Turrosh Mak , German will be very strong when he have his tank , so build Sistine . Gold will never be a problem after you enter Industail age.

	26-09-2003 10:00									#13
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I would go with Leo's, unless you're planning for a mostly peaceful game. With Leo's you can cheaply build up a large force, and conquer a civ or three on the other continent. That should take care of your unhappiness problems by putting another couple of Luxuries under your control. Heck, you might even get the chance to use your army to "take back" Sistine.

Although happiness and military units are both means to an end, military units are closer to that end than happiness. When in doubt, beat someone up (in Civ3!).


Dominae

	26-09-2003 19:53									#14
	Got spare money?

I'd pack it all in, give up, quit, then swallow a couple of cyanide washed down with cider. PS - don't try this at home kids