26-09-2003 00:21									#1
	Using your enemy to annex your ally Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Whilst at war with the Japanese, and allied to the Iroqs and Americans, I was busily taking lightly-defended cities off the Japanese that they'd just expensively taken from my allies. A lot easier than taking a Japanese city - I couldn't get near any.

Worse for the allies, the quick temples I raised in my new holdings soon culture bombed another city each from those allies.

At the end of the war the Japanese had expended a lot of units and gained nothing but a few promotions, I had gained some cities and my allies had been effectively relegated from contention in the game.

I suppose I could have given them back, but as the AI has never given my a single, solitary gold piece ever as a gift I thought I'd follow their example. Then I thought that this could be a way to expand one's empire as a matter of policy, rather than circumstance.

No doubt posters who regularly use this are familiar with the tactic... It's interesting because you use the military of your enemy to make gains at the expense of the ally. A sort of inverse war ...

	26-09-2003 00:32									#2
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they are technically all your enemies, and you should do with them as you please..

once you get large enough, they all start to hate you.. so I always buy alliances to weaken the strongest AI, while keeping all the other AIs busy as I'm plotting their destruction.

I've had Cleo come to my aid in the ancient age once, I mistakenly gifted her with a tech and she turned gracious towards me. Later, when another civ declared war on me, Cleo came to my aid and declared war against the other civ.

But that rarely happens though, so to all the AI civs!

	26-09-2003 00:42									#3
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quote: Originally posted by PeaSoup I've had Cleo come to my aid in the ancient age once, I mistakenly gifted her with a tech and she turned gracious towards me. Later, when another civ declared war on me, Cleo came to my aid and declared war against the other civ.

, but surely a coincidence!

	26-09-2003 13:21									#4
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I've seen both these cases in my last game. I was playing the Ottomans, and my next door neighbours were the Iroquois. At one time, we fought a war and after 1000 years they were still furious with me for taking some of their cities (actually, they never recovered).
Anyway, about 1000 years after I defetead them, the Iroquois found themselves at war with the Zulus, the French and the Mongols (they not allied, they just smelled blood). By virtue of the complicated web of MPPs and - most important - Joan's stupidity, I quickly found myself at war with the French, Mongols and Zulus, along with 2 or 3 other nations. In fact, I had been at war with France since about the time I made peace with the Iroquois. In short, Hiawatha (sp?) was getting pounded quite badly, when enntered the scene. I had no common border with those 3, so I was mainly concentrating somewhere else, when I noticed some border changes. I diverted some troops to the area, and I soon occupied formerly Iroquois territory. This brought and end to this 5-sided war, and, after a few gifts consisting in obsolete tech (Hiawatha was fielding knights and musketmen, while I was building tanks), the Iroquois changed their attitude and eventually they accepted an MPP. Shortly after that, Hiawatha goes and declares war against the Mongols. Guess were I expanded, yet again. Later on, they proved quite useful diverting some of the Zulu attacks from my troops, who were busy blitzing through their territory (I've never seen this before: the Zulus were losing their core cities to me, yet their were still sending units half a world away into Iroquois land).

On a side note, here's another way of using your enemy's resources: in the same game, during my 1000 year war with France (we didn't have common border), I think Joan financed most of research. Here's why: the shortest way to get to me was through indian territory. Ghandi was kind enough to grant Joan RoP, but not to me. Nevermind, he was regularly paying me over 500 gpt for tech. My research was getting 80%, even 90% of my income, and my treasury was still getting a lot, mainly from Ghandi. My guess is Joan was paying quite a lot for RoP, and Ghandi was using that money to get tech from me. Sounds more like the Grand Nagus than Ghandi, but it got me hordes of elite units and even 2 or 3 GLs. Thanks, Joan.

	26-09-2003 17:54									#5
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I often do this, only passively though. I just happen to have weak allies.

	26-09-2003 18:08									#6
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The charm about this method is, that you won't get any resistance. At the coutrary, the resistance your enemy suffered ends, once you take the city. I have done this too, on occasion.

	26-09-2003 19:16									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula .... My guess is Joan was paying quite a lot for RoP, and Ghandi was using that money to get tech from me.

RoP prices are nowhere near industrial techs. I think 95G is the most I've ever got. Ghandi was selling your techs on to keep the income going. I find that one good, regular customer can be enough to earn top coin for tech if they are the clear second place. They effectively sell it on for you (saving all that tedious each-turn checking, weighing values and negotiating) and earn enough to keep buying new tech. The whole thing can collapse of course, through war or the ending of a GA, but that's fun anyway!

	26-09-2003 21:09									#8
	Re: Using your enemy to annex your ally Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Whilst at war with the Japanese, and allied to the Iroqs and Americans, I was busily taking lightly-defended cities off the Japanese that they'd just expensively taken from my allies. A lot easier than taking a Japanese city - I couldn't get near any. No doubt posters who regularly use this are familiar with the tactic... It's interesting because you use the military of your enemy to make gains at the expense of the ally. A sort of inverse war ...

That is nasty and evil. I love it! I will look for that opportunity. However, so far my experience is that when I gather a "coalition of the willing", the target is almost immediately in no position to be taking other cities. They do spend a lot of time killing allies' units and losing their own, both of which I appreciate greatly, but I haven't seen them invade.

So, now I get to scheme about how to possibly "arrange" such a convenient opportunity to stab my allies in the back. After all, "ally" is a synonym for "future target". I'd feel guilty about thinking that way except for two reasons: One, it's true. Two, they think that way also. The Civ world is almost as nasty as the real one.

	27-09-2003 02:14									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus , but surely a coincidence!

probably, but since the AI usually picks the weaker opponent to attack, and I was pretty weak at the time.. gave me the feeling that Cleo really was coming to my aid..

	29-09-2003 13:50									#10
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An ideal setup for this is where the enemy civ is strongest on the continent, and where there is a 'common border' area between all civs in the middle of the continent.

The human's well defended border towns will deflect the enemy attack towards one or more allies elsewhere on the common border. Let them take the first city, then penetrate deeper and spend forces and HP attacking the second. Now strike at the first which will be behind their depleting lines. Taking it cuts off their advance from the reinforcements, allowing both to be dealt with seperately and giving the weakened ally a chance to grind down the enemy spearhead without being crushed by the reinforcements.

	30-09-2003 00:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus An ideal setup for this is where the enemy civ is strongest on the continent, and where there is a 'common border' area between all civs in the middle of the continent.

I have actually seen this situation and have done similar things to what is mentioned in the rest of the post, although maybe nto a clearly thought out. Good points! Nicely focused write up of an opportunistic tactic. Now I will know what I am doing when I do it. No wonder I love this forum.