26-09-2003 03:55									#1
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So, who would it be? GWT or CGN?

Note: this is only a fun entertainment psychological poll. It will not affect foreign relations with either team. It's simply to see which of the two most people have more affinity with based on what we've previously heard from them.

	26-09-2003 04:00									#2
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Me: GWT.

Ok, perhaps I'm biased based on the PTWDG but here are my reasons:

1) In-game should GWT win a war against CGN they will have their golden age earlier and there will be more time to diplomatically (make it technologically) isolate them. That gives us a better chance of winning in the long run. CGN if they get their GA will be in the late medieval and possibly industrial, at a time in which a GA can get them to surge tremendously.

2) Frankly, I like their honesty (no pun intended). They made it clear in the last letter that they regard CGN as the enemy and that we should not trade to them. Plain and simple. No hypocritical diplomatic bullshit. After reading CGN's "history site" I can't help but feel it is the most propaganda-twisted tale since Bush's state of the union address.

	26-09-2003 04:00									#3
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The Germans: if they control the other continent and CFC still exists, it'll be easier to keep CFC on our side because of the language barrier. If we assume CFC is gone by then though I'm not sure.

	26-09-2003 04:06									#4
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It's too early to really tell IMO, but since it's not a "policy" poll I voted for GWT. Why? Simple...I'd rather CGN face Ansars and be wiped from the game, than have us back CGN to GWT's detriment, and then have to face their Sipahi and a golden age later on.

Re: MZ's 2nd point, I'm more inclined to trust GWT's word than CGN's too. They seem more upfront and honest, language barrier aside.

	26-09-2003 04:10									#5
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Banana- we strengthen whichever party is weaker, with the aim of destroying them both.

	26-09-2003 04:14									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Banana- we strengthen whichever party is weaker, with the aim of destroying them both.

Sounds good to me.

How kind of them to be at each others' throats already. It's like CFC and GCA all over again. Just a lot bigger.

	26-09-2003 04:16									#7
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CGN. My country is already sided with the Germans.

	26-09-2003 04:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Sounds good to me. How kind of them to be at each others' throats already. It's like CFC and GCA all over again. Just a lot bigger.

Yeah, bummer. At least we won't have to have Togas and the rest pulling out all the stops to get friends to go to war with each other...just a few things in his bag of tricks to hopefully give "cold war enemies" a friendly push over the edge.

	26-09-2003 04:27									#9
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Frankly, I would rather that they keep at each other, so that they say weak. It would not behoove us to have either of them fully control that contenent.

As for who we can work with better, so far, CGN, as they are willing to chat, have set up special diplomatic channels with us and are willing to communicate on a fast pace, if we so desire. GWT appears not to really care, so to hell with them.

E_T

	26-09-2003 04:39									#10
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Germans all the way ..

	26-09-2003 05:52									#11
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Neither. Try to do all we can to edge them toward war. Anything that impairs their infrastructure and development helps us.

If I had to choose one to survive over the other, I'd pick GWT, for language-barrier reasons, plus the fact that their UU loses effectiveness by the time we'll be facing them (as opposed to CGN, which has no language-barrier and a late-Medieval UU).

	26-09-2003 06:48									#12
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Could care less. Apolyton has no eternal enemies and no perpetual allies, only eternal interests.

	26-09-2003 12:41									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Could care less. Apolyton has no eternal enemies and no perpetual allies, only eternal interests.

Very well said. This is a very cruel game.

	26-09-2003 12:48									#14
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While I prefer CGN because I believe they will be easier to negotiate with, faster to respond, and have been far easier to work with thus far, I think the key question is: which team do we think is our biggest threat?

I agree with those who fear the Siphani. We have little to fear from the Ansar until Navigation. However, we also need to consider which team is better at warfare.

I'm not all that impressed with CGN's victory over the French. I am, however, impressed with GWT's military tactics and strategy. We need to carefully consider which of the two of them would beat the other, and back the weaker side.

I ultimately agree with Arnelos that we should not have any eternal allies, so whoever we "back" we should not back very overtly. We should not stick ourself to either side.

--Togas

	26-09-2003 18:30									#15
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Sometimes you just have to go for the banana.

	26-09-2003 19:28									#16
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I think we should always side with the weakest team (even if it changes periodically), until we're sure we can compete for the win.


Dominae

	26-09-2003 19:40									#17
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This is tied to the 'long-term' strategy discussion in the other thread. I have chosen the great banana, on the understanding that it means we back the weaker side, to make the war as long and messy as possible.

	26-09-2003 21:38									#18
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Neither.

As long as neither party in that land mass looks like it's threatening our vital national interests, stay neutral and trade would both.

	27-09-2003 02:53									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I'm not all that impressed with CGN's victory over the French. I am, however, impressed with GWT's military tactics and strategy. --Togas

Did you see something I didn't? How do you know which victory was more impressive? What military tactics did one side use and the other didn't? Where did you get this information? All I know is that one side beat on the French, the other on Firaxis, and both fell down and went boom.

	27-09-2003 02:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Did you see something I didn't? How do you know which victory was more impressive? What military tactics did one side use and the other didn't? Where did you get this information? All I know is that one side beat on the French, the other on Firaxis, and both fell down and went boom.

GWT = ND in the PTWDG, and ND certainly knows what it's doing.

	27-09-2003 02:57									#21
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Togas is basing his impressions on what we found in CGN's History pages and what he knows about ND (which is basically GWT member's) in the PTWDG.

	27-09-2003 05:59									#22
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CGN (if they are to be believed) had iron. Gren did not. If you read their history page and read the account of their battle against the ironless Frogs, it actually sounds like the Frogs put up a good fight. Some of their shots from the battle show them spreading out units, using too few units, and they tell a tale of getting their amphibious spear forces easily destroyed by French archers.

A civ with Iron and good tactics should easily destroy an ironless civ. I get the impression that CGN, while agressive, isn't a team of military masterminds.

GWT (if they can be believed) TOOK iron away from Fraxis and beat them with it. They took on a civ that had iron, fought them without it, and won. GWT has also demonstrated some strong military and tactical planning in the PTWDG.

... or at least that's my opinion of things. I'd be much happier to hear the opinions of the more military minded members of our team who have reviewed the evidence.

--Togas

	27-09-2003 07:45									#23
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I still suspect that CGN is stronger than GWT or has some other advantage we d not know of (easily vulnerable GWT cities for example). No-one in their right minds would begin preparations against a civ nominaly their equal unless they were more than confident of victory.

Regardless of who has superior tactics, I doubt CGN is dumb enough for an endeavor of this magnitude if they were not capable enough to judge the strategic situation.

Furthermore, I think GWT knows this. If you are totally prepared for war, and know that your rival is going to attack you, what do you do? 1) pre-empt or 2) wait and crush him as he lunges toward you. The fact that GWT wanted us to talk to CGN about retireing troops makes me think GWT is aware that they are not as strong.

On the other hand, looking at the fact that they have a chokepoint separating them I doubt they could really do much damage to each other as long as each side keeps to its own.

	27-09-2003 09:05									#24
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*Another* chokepoint separating two civs? And this map was randomly generated?

To be blunt: Bullshit.

	27-09-2003 09:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon *Another* chokepoint separating two civs? And this map was randomly generated? To be blunt: Bullshit.

I totally concurr

Ever since we saw that misplaced ocean tile its pretty darn obvious this map was heavily modified by hand.

	27-09-2003 18:56									#26
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First, I’m missing where the info is on the other teams’ history. Is it found in the postings of correspondance?

Second, can we make sure the next map for the next game (maybe it will be the Conquests DG) is randomly generated?