26-09-2003 04:41									#1
	Transport aircraft in Civ II? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

How you guys would develop the role of a transport airplane (Like the Hercules) or a transport helicopter (like the Chinook)?

I was thinking about the trade role (bringing supplies to the frontline cities) and treating all squares like roads (to simulate the fly), but they won't fly over the sea...Is there another way to implement it?

Thanks

	26-09-2003 05:01									#2
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Yes. Make a paratrooping ship! It will carry as many land units as it's transport capacity allows. If it lands in another city or on an airfield, it can then be used again. If it lands on other land terrain, it can't move again - unless it's next to water, in which case it will move it's full movement allowance (must be at least 1) on the water. It is a ship after all!

BTW, aircraft carriers and subs can also be made to paradrop, and will carry their normal cargoes of planes and missiles.

	26-09-2003 05:10									#3
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Nice tip, techumseh!

I'll keep that one in mind too!

	26-09-2003 05:21									#4
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techumseh!!That sounds really interesting! A transport aircraft which only can 'land' on airbases or cities...and can carry ground equipment...JUST WHAT I NEEDED!! Thanks!

	26-09-2003 06:56									#5
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Glad to be of service. The idea was pioneered by Captain Nemo, who used it in Second Front for allied gliders.

I've since experimented with it in a couple of unfinished ToT scenarios; as Huey's in Indochina War and as Martian aerial battleships in Barsoom. It works fine, although of course the AI just uses them the same way as it uses regular paratroops.

	26-09-2003 16:05									#6
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"Barsoom"?


tell us more about this piece of work tech.

	26-09-2003 16:31									#7
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Well done Techumseh

(I didn't remember second front )

	26-09-2003 17:09									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos "Barsoom"? tell us more about this piece of work tech.

It's based on the series by Edgar Rice Burroughs (the author of 'Tarzan') It's early 20th century sci-fi set on Mars. A number of more or less human civs (red, yellow and black Martians) contend with each other and with the barbaric green martians as well as numerous fierce beasts which roam the deserts and mountains. The planet is dying (of course!) and the remaining water is distributed from the polar caps to the cities by means of canals.

Here's a screenie:

	26-09-2003 17:53									#9
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Yeah, considered this before, does it work now?

I've thought about using land units for aircraft transport before for some scenarios, and found it used in LotR.

Frodo is the only unit that can carry the ring (air unit).

	26-09-2003 18:44									#10
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Er, why can't you just use the airports? Do you just not want veteran planes to be built?

	26-09-2003 23:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh It's based on the series by Edgar Rice Burroughs (the author of 'Tarzan') It's early 20th century sci-fi set on Mars. A number of more or less human civs (red, yellow and black Martians) contend with each other and with the barbaric green martians as well as numerous fierce beasts which roam the deserts and mountains. The planet is dying (of course!) and the remaining water is distributed from the polar caps to the cities by means of canals.

Sounds cool, looks cooler!

Will it be released in the near future?

	27-09-2003 04:17									#12
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the concept is tested and working. Thanks again, techumseh

Elok, I don't want that airlift feature of the airports. I need a useful unit which can carry a determined amount of ground units, land in airfields, unload the equipment, and then fly back home to load more equipment.

The enemy air force will be able to shot down these transports with their units manually

	27-09-2003 10:20									#13
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Can paradropping 'ships' capture unoccupied cities?

	27-09-2003 15:24									#14
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Yes, paradropping ships can capture unoccupied cities.

	27-09-2003 23:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Pablostuka Elok, I don't want that airlift feature of the airports. I need a useful unit which can carry a determined amount of ground units, land in airfields, unload the equipment, and then fly back home to load more equipment. The enemy air force will be able to shot down these transports with their units manually

Well, it sounds like the only difference you're adding is a trade between being able to move more units per turn and having a range-time limit/adding the bother of micromanagement. What you'd wind up with is something like Colonization without the Custom House, and that was easily the most irritating and dull stage of that game. If these planes have no military aspect, what's the point of making them units?

	28-09-2003 03:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Yes, paradropping ships can capture unoccupied cities.

If you give it the sub tag too, can it still take cities?

	28-09-2003 03:49									#17
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Yes, it works even with the sub tag.

	29-09-2003 11:24									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Sounds cool, looks cooler! Will it be released in the near future?

Don't hold your breath. It's one of several scenarios I partially developed while trying to learn the ToT system. Right now I'm just about done Warlords of China, then there's a couple of others a little farther along then this one.

I have a dillema with Barsoom. I can't decide whether to design it as a quest type scenario, which is consistent with the books (sequential adventures of a hero, in this case, John Carter) or as multiplayer. There's 7 civs, and a very strong barbarian element, plus interesting new tactics, ie. paratrooping ships which won't work with the AI. Comments?

Here's the title page:

	01-10-2003 11:31									#19
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quote: Can paradropping 'ships' capture unoccupied cities?

A paradrop unit with Att=0 should not be able to capture a city (it is only a transport unit). Unless the paradrop algorithm doesn't check attack strength…

The idea of air transport units is not good. Transport aircraft have never been effective at moving full scale fighting units, only supplies. Paratroops only carry enough supplies for a few days. Unless reinforced or relieved by regulars they can't engage in extended operations.

In the Berlin Airlift nearly the entire US WWII air transport fleet was diverted to the task, and they were able to keep the city just above starvation level.

When the blocade was finally lifted one steam-powered train delivered more than a week's worth of flights.

Today, a C5 or C17 can only lift one MBT, so it would take 700+ flights to move an armored division. Then consider all the supplies needed for extended combat (especially fuel) and airlifting becomes dreadfully inadequate.

Allowing one unit to be moved into or out of a city with a huge Airport in one turn is in some ways generous. By contrast, a few ships can haul a division anywhere in the world in a month.

	01-10-2003 13:43									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow The idea of air transport units is not good.

Whatever their limitations, they sure beat the current airports, what whith their unlimited range and zero turnaround time.

quote: Transport aircraft have never been effective at moving full scale fighting units, only supplies.

Urm, you may want to read up on your military history - as early as the 1930s air transport was moving entire military units and keeping them sustained through tough combat. In WW2 the Burma campaign was nearly totally dependant on air supply, with entire infantry divisions being moved and sustained by air transport alone.

quote: In the Berlin Airlift nearly the entire US WWII air transport fleet was diverted to the task, and they were able to keep the city just above starvation level.

A key lesson learnt in the Berlin Airlift was that the Allies existing transports were too small. Hence, the development of the C-130 and thier ilk, each of which can carry the loads of several C-47s or C-54s.

quote: Today, a C5 or C17 can only lift one MBT, so it would take 700+ flights to move an armored division. Then consider all the supplies needed for extended combat (especially fuel) and airlifting becomes dreadfully inadequate.

Read up on the US Army's new Stryker Brigades - they're intended to be able to deploy a full brigade to anywhere in the world in 72 hours and be kept supplied by air transport alone. Given the recent performance of US Air Transport in Afganistan (where everything is moved by air), it's perfectly feasible for military campaigns to be sustained by aircraft alone.

	01-10-2003 15:44									#21
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Well...I think transport aircraft are vital in modern military operations. I will use this concept extensively in my current scenario project.

These units will have the max paradrop range (100), and a limited amount of units to carry. Helicopters will carry only 1 unit, and only infantry (house rule).

Medium transports (like the CN-235) will carry 2 infantry units, or a light vehicle unit.

Heavy transports (like the C-130) will carry 3 infantry units, 2 light vehicles or 1 heavy vehicles unit.

If you are using more modern transports (like the C-5 Galaxy), you should increase the number of units carried, but I won't use this kind of unit in my scenario.

I have tested it in game, and works very well ...but it will only be a multiplayer scenario, because the AI won't know how to use them in game

Here are the units I've designed: CASA CN-235 and C-130 Hercules

Attachment: pablotransportes.gif
This has been downloaded 53 time(s).

	02-10-2003 13:44									#22
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I've once considered doing some 21st century scenario.

TransAll transport planes would have been an obligation here

	03-10-2003 02:20									#23
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Come to think of it, how can the "planes" be intercepted if they paradrop? Won't the paradrop just take place as planned even if there are thirty AA guns in the way?
Also, this method eliminates the possibility of using Airports to make veteran air units and renders paradropping for any other units nonsensical. You seem to be giving up a lot for what seems a minor gameplay aspect. "Bringing supplies to frontline cities" is just a matter of airlifting caravans, and is AI-friendly to boot.
It's your scenario, of course, I'm just wondering why. I always thought "never sacrifice gameplay for realism" was the number-one rule of scenario design.

	04-10-2003 15:11									#24
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Well Elok, I suppose there is no way of intercepting paratroopers in Civ2