26-09-2003 09:04									#1
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Our system of government doesn't seem like a true democracy. We vote for people to make our decisions for us. Sometimes we have to vote for things we don't believe in. For example, when you vote for a politician it is very rare to agree with every one of his policies. But you still vote for him and that policy(ies) that you disagree with. Why can't we make more decisions ourselves?

What if we allowed the general public to vote on bills? The problem would be the people wouldn't understand the issues (the people in American don't care about politics anymore and don't even question the world around them, so we get leaders like Bush who brainwash the public easily).n The average person in the US probably couldn't make an educated decision on laws dealing with businesses' insurance coverage mental-health care. But what if for everything voted on (including candidates I guess) the voter had to pass a test on the issue? They'd have to answer just a few simple questions on the issue and each opposing side or the policies of the candidates and then their vote would count. Some people might say that it wouldn't be fair because they wouldn't know what to learn, but first off this would encourage people to look into things which is good, and second, the simple solution is to release a cheap pamphlet with some information on the issue (or candidate) and all the answers to the questions would be in there somewhere. And in the pamphlet sources would be given to places where people could find more information, and the reader would be very strongly encouraged to look into the issue more.

The problem is, who would write the tests? I haven't thought of it yet, but I'm sure there would be a solution to this. Maybe we could democratically elect the people, or maybe each party would write up questions or something.

So what do you think?

	26-09-2003 09:05									#2
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it's not suppose to be a democracy

it is suppose to be a republic

JOn Miller

	26-09-2003 09:05									#3
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Representative democracy is the only form possible in anything larger than a city-state. A (relatively) small one.

EDIT: jon miller

	26-09-2003 09:07									#4
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It's possible, if we developed a secure internet voting system.

	26-09-2003 09:09									#5
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SECURE internet voting system? What will you come up with next, che?

	26-09-2003 09:10									#6
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quote: Our system of government doesn't seem like a true democracy. We vote for people to make our decisions for us. Sometimes we have to vote for things we don't believe in. For example, when you vote for a politician it is very rare to agree with every one of his policies. But you still vote for him and that policy(ies) that you disagree with. Why can't we make more decisions ourselves? What if we allowed the general public to vote on bills?

An easier way would be to allow voters to earmark their taxdollars for programs they want to support. If you want your money spent on the military, then you could earmark a certain percentage for the military, etc...

	26-09-2003 09:10									#7
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"secure internet" = oxymoron

	26-09-2003 09:11									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker An easier way would be to allow voters to earmark their taxdollars for programs they want to support. If you want your money spent on the military, then you could earmark a certain percentage for the military, etc...

Doesn't work - then the money doesn't get spent as the majority wants it, it gets spent as the average of what everyone wants. Plus it probably wouldn't work.

	26-09-2003 09:11									#9
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Actually the USA is a republic, which is really quite different in a democracy. It is, however, probably the closest thing practical with a large group.

	26-09-2003 09:13									#10
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Well, I don't want a republic. I want a democracy.

Seond, I guess we could have voter stations built and open all of the time with plenty of extra ballots.

	26-09-2003 09:14									#11
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Doesn't work! It just doesn't. You cannot have an effective system that way.

For instance, who would decide what got on the ballots?

	26-09-2003 09:15									#12
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"vote early, vote often"

Jon Miller

	26-09-2003 09:21									#13
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We could elect people to write it. Or, the candidates could write their own questions. Questions for both candidates would have to be answered, so they'd be fair.

I just don't think that we should just dismiss the idea without giving it a chance. It could be great.

	26-09-2003 09:23									#14
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quote: We could elect people to write it.

So now we are back to a Republic, at least in part. What we can vote on is decided by other people.

quote: Or, the candidates could write their own questions. Questions for both candidates would have to be answered, so they'd be fair.

huh?

quote: I just don't think that we should just dismiss the idea without giving it a chance. It could be great.

I don't think we should dismiss the idea [of completely screwing up the entire nation] without giving it a chance...

	26-09-2003 09:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker An easier way would be to allow voters to earmark their taxdollars for programs they want to support. If you want your money spent on the military, then you could earmark a certain percentage for the military, etc...

A couple of problems spring to mind but the most obvious would be the need to educate the public as to budgetry needs. e.g what % of tax dollars should be spent on military and what % on healthcare. I'm buggered if I know what the current allocations in my country are. If it was left to Joe Public to come up with the budgets there will be massive under and over funding.

Earmarking only a fraction of your tax dollars would be a pointless exercise, as any budget areas that are not sufficiently covered by the earmarking will be covered by the remaining unearmarked funds. The net effect is that the budget is decided by someone else and your tax dollars are aproppriated in the same proportions as before.

	26-09-2003 09:41									#16
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quote: Or, the candidates could write their own questions. Questions for both candidates would have to be answered, so they'd be fair.

Just exactly as I said it. They'd write questions about themselves. Example Howard Dean was the governor of Vermont, true or false. So and so is for the abolition of the death penalty, true or false. They wouldn't have to be true or false questions though, those are just examples.

quote: I don't think we should dismiss the idea [of completely screwing up the entire nation] without giving it a chance...

[Fez mode]Skywalker, why are you so delusional? Maybe a swim in the shark-infested Pacific Ocean would do you good. Where is my chopper?[/Fez mode]

Seriously though, that idea has been tried for 226 years, so it hasn't been dismissed. Maybe giving the people more say might be better. The people would have direct control over the issues instead of politicians only being able to vote on them.

	26-09-2003 09:43									#17
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quote: Just exactly as I said it. They'd write questions about themselves. Example Howard Dean was the governor of Vermont, true or false. So and so is for the abolition of the death penalty, true or false. They wouldn't have to be true or false questions though, those are just examples.

Oh, so you were talking about a Republic right then...

quote: Seriously though, that idea has been tried for 226 years, so it hasn't been dismissed. Maybe giving the people more say might be better. The people would have direct control over the issues instead of politicians only being able to vote on them.

Maybe giving people more say would lead to complete chaos and malfunction in the government (and thus the nation). Most likely, in fact. And politicians are actually a pretty good measure of what the people want (they want to be reelected).

	26-09-2003 10:02									#18
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In Canada we call it dicatorial democracy... The right to vote and the right to be dictated to...

Anyone else see the trend?

So who's money is it anyway?
So who's rights are they promoting?
So is there a law in your land that stops them from harming you?
So is there a law in your land that stops them from oppressing you?
Is there a law in your land that stops them from taking your cash?

So bottom line do they care and do they abide by the laws or do they just change them to justify thier actions, dispite the will of the people.

Are you afraid of your government?
Do they have more power than you?
Do appointed by the government at the time judges making social decissions for the masses?
Ask questions be pro active, see the results.

	26-09-2003 10:05									#19
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The government does not have more power than you (the people), because you have complete power over the government. The government cannot maintain something against the will of the people for more than four years max, unless it declares martial law etc., in which case it's a moot point anyways.

	26-09-2003 10:24									#20
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Yes every four years, but while in power they have the power over you. Do not kid yourself and in fours years look at the carnage,,,, you had the power?

Dictatorial democracy do not kid yourself...

	26-09-2003 10:25									#21
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You want us to swap administrations MORE often?

Plus, they WANT to be reelected. That keeps them from doing something that people don't want.

	26-09-2003 10:30									#22
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Pick a side, if not mine, piss off, don't want to hear,
no compromise when it comes to man,
man's ****ing me up in here.
His ability to make it all dissapear,
how can I trust what I fear, be like the rest,
disconnect, stick my head in a beer,
that dizzy disease, disney indeed,
dangle the carrot, watch the ass feed.
Never questioning the hand that bleeds,
less brain than present day Cobain,
global destruction at the touch of a button
a world clearly insane,
genocide justified as killing in the name,
won't be satisfied till the peace keepers fly,
then it's boom, boom, boom, boom, goodbye.

Put up, or get up and get out,
ya gotta put up, or get up and get out
ya gotta put up, or get up and get out
ya gotta put up, put up, put up, put up, get out!

/Pollutiom
/Murder
/Carnage
/Give it up

You voted for that right?

	26-09-2003 10:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui SECURE internet voting system? What will you come up with next, che?

Commies have a prolific imagination -- who knows, Imran.

	26-09-2003 11:25									#24
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The day they come up with a 'secure' system is the day some hacker in Singapore swings the election for the Natural Law Party.

	26-09-2003 13:11									#25
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Plus, they WANT to be reelected. That keeps them from doing something that people don't want.

Nonsense this. Unpopular decisions have to be made.

	26-09-2003 19:14									#26
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Well, I don't want a republic. I want a democracy.

Why that's downright unAmerican!

	26-09-2003 19:27									#27
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I don't really want either, but our current system seems to be the best we could get. Failing that, I vote for the revival of the ancient Chinese Mandate of Heaven system, which is essentially a more honest and high-risk form of our present "democracy."
And I agree that controlling the flow of information on the internet is a slightly smaller problem than inventing time travel, or cold fusion. 'Taint gonna happen.

	26-09-2003 19:40									#28
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker "secure internet" = oxymoron

Couldn't be any less secure then your current methods.

	26-09-2003 20:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod But what if for everything voted on (including candidates I guess) the voter had to pass a test on the issue? They'd have to answer just a few simple questions on the issue and each opposing side or the policies of the candidates and then their vote would count. Some people might say that it wouldn't be fair because they wouldn't know what to learn, but first off this would encourage people to look into things which is good, and second, the simple solution is to release a cheap pamphlet with some information on the issue (or candidate) and all the answers to the questions would be in there somewhere. And in the pamphlet sources would be given to places where people could find more information, and the reader would be very strongly encouraged to look into the issue more.

These types of test have been twisted and used in the past to deny the rights of minorities to vote. I don't think we want to go back down that road.

	26-09-2003 20:16									#30
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What if the minority we're trying to deny rights to is Stupid People?