26-09-2003 15:12									#61
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he should do her.

	26-09-2003 15:54									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger For all his faults, calling Howard a loser is a bit over the top don't you think? So he was indecisive the first time around and now wouldn't let go, but don't we all have our own hang-ups?

No, I don't actually. Being a loser is a state of mind. Either Howard does something to resolve the situation or he doesn't. If he can't/won't resolve this he probably has other unresolved issues in his life that are also holding him back.

At the grand old age of 42 I don't regret the things I have done, only some of the things I didn't do. I have given my considered opinion. If anyone finds it a bit strong, or even offensive, I would only say that wasn't the intent.

	26-09-2003 16:06									#63
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If it was me... I'd see if the woman was available. Something along the lines of,

"Do you want me as your boyfriend?".

If no, find someone else. If yes, forget the past 4 years.

If he's too retarded to do this, he doesn't deserve to breed.

	26-09-2003 17:56									#64
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV At the grand old age of 42 I don't regret the things I have done, only some of the things I didn't do

Best quote in this thread.

It's time for him to find out now before he's tortured for another 4 years. You can't win if you don't play.

	26-09-2003 18:13									#65
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fdphg

Last edited by Az on 26-09-2003 at 18:26

	26-09-2003 19:13									#66
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I think we need more information to go on before making this kind of decision. While most women bore me equally, I do recognize that there are a lot of different kinds of them, and I don't think we know enough to be sure what any of Yvonne's motives are, or if Howard has genuine love or an erotic obsession going on. I've seen both in my more sucessful and outgoing friends, and they can be startlingly similar.
I'm not qualified to help, of course, since I'm in a comparable but less screwed-up situation. Five days earlier and she probably would have been single. Argh. Thing is, I know what I'm doing now. The girl is good enough to wait for as far as I'm concerned, so I'm going to just try to get to know her as well as I can, be as good of a friend as I can, until she is available again (I know that being "friends" is supposed to be the kiss of death, but since she already knows I'd like to be more than friends, the situation is merely awkward-but-salvageable). Howard, on the other hand, appears to be standing on thin air with a deer-in-the-headlights look in his face waiting for help that nobody else can give him, just judging from what you've told us. Since I can't imagine anybody solving his mess but him, I'd say the most important thing is to try something-anything but what he's doing now. In my own ignorant opinion, of course. Maybe he needs a shrink, or a priest. I don't know...

	26-09-2003 19:56									#67
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Sorry, but Howard is pathetic.

After six years he is still mooning over this woman? He has lost six precious, irreplaceable years of his youth in an attempt to win a prize he is, quite frankly, not fit for. A man with such lame social abilities is not going to do well at the side of a professional actress.

China has SIX HUNDRED MILLION women. If he thinks that all of his hopes for happiness are tied to one glamorous starlet, then, well, he is being silly and immature.

Howard needs a bucket of cold water in the face and some serious, mature advice about moving on before he wastes yet another year of his life wringing his hands over dusty penpal letters. If you are his friend, UR, you will give that to him.

Good luck to him!

	26-09-2003 20:19									#68
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I sort of see where mindseye is coming from, though I do think that if he still gets her, all is forgiven, in the end.

	26-09-2003 20:57									#69
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV If he can't/won't resolve this he probably has other unresolved issues in his life that are also holding him back.

Not that I know of, then again, I don't know him for that long. He's practising at a local hospital, and is pretty high up in the chain of command. Howard is sort of a reverse idiot savant, being really bad at this one thing.

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV At the grand old age of 42 I don't regret the things I have done, only some of the things I didn't do.

Apparently, same with him.

quote: Originally posted by mindseye After six years he is still mooning over this woman?

Some call it bloody singlemindedness

Seriously, I have seem people at both ends of the spectrum. Some shrugs it off after a couple of weeks, some others, might take a decade or more to heal.

quote: Originally posted by mindseye He has lost six precious, irreplaceable years of his youth in an attempt to win a prize he is, quite frankly, not fit for.

I wouldn't say it's a total loss. He has been much more driven in his profession than he may have otherwise. Works 90-hour weeks at times (see below).

quote: Originally posted by mindseye A man with such lame social abilities is not going to do well at the side of a professional actress.

He's not social lame, I'd say quite graceful, much better than me anyway (that's not saying anything, I usually just sit in a corner ). Rather coincidentally, Yvonne is not attracted social functions at all. That might be the reason why she's not doing as well as her talents indicate.

quote: Originally posted by mindseye If he thinks that all of his hopes for happiness are tied to one glamorous starlet, then, well, he is being silly and immature.

It's a very strange, choronic, recurring "disease." Howard could go for long stretches normally, then he would be hit and got this blue funk over him. That's when he turns into a workaholic and pull long working hours. Usually after a week, he'll return to normal. The occurance is random, except in December and February, when the symptoms are especially strong. He told me he had a bad run, which was a continuous stretch from December 1999 - March 2000, 3 and 1/2 months.

	26-09-2003 21:01									#70
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I really think he should talk to her and express his feelings and desires to her...

It is wrong to fool himself of his feelings and deprive himself of an opportunity, he will regret it, and what is he going to do if they get married?

It is wrong of him to deprive or keep the truth from her, she is his friend after all.

He has nothing to lose. If she respocate than great, if not he has a psycho with a lot of baggage of his hands.

The only person one is responsible for is themselves and the ones they love.

Just tell her!

	26-09-2003 21:03									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I think we need more information to go on before making this kind of decision.

If you have more concrete questions, I may be able to answer them.

quote: Originally posted by Elok and I don't think we know enough to be sure what any of Yvonne's motives are

I don't think she's stringing him along if that's what you mean. As far as I can see, poor Howard missed the train as Imran said, so he settled for being a friend.

quote: Originally posted by Elok or if Howard has genuine love or an erotic obsession going on.

No idea, but probably won't make a difference at this point. I reckon, though, if it's some kind of obsession, he would have already done something to Yvonne, up to and including killing her.

	26-09-2003 21:08									#72
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One more thing, I am not sure if it helps or muddles.

In some scenes of her latest film, Yvonne was wearing the diamond pendant Howard gave her on her birthday in 1997.

	26-09-2003 21:11									#73
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Yup.

Urban Ranger, I mean Howard, better tell her that he loves her... Sheesh I mean he gives her a diamond necklace in the same year he meets her?

He may have missed the boat, but he'd be a fool to continue to play with HIS emotions like this any more... He needs to fess up or cut himself free.

	26-09-2003 21:18									#74
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Diamond pendant?

Didn't she ask why? I know that if I ever gave a gift like that, the first question that would come up is why are you giving me this gift?

	26-09-2003 21:20									#75
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what Japher said.

	26-09-2003 21:34									#76
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The thing is, does this shed some light to Yvonne's inner self? I mean, why she was wearing this pendant?


Japher,

You think it's me, eh?

Anyway, no, they met in person for the first time in 1997, but they knew each other before that.


Ben,

She didn't, maybe because he gave her the pendant during a party her fans put together for her. Of course, he put a letter in the same paper bag (one of those expensive, pretty looking ones) should have clued her in.

	26-09-2003 21:40									#77
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quote: Of course, he put a letter in the same paper bag (one of those expensive, pretty looking ones) should have clued her in.

That's a warning sign, and not a good one. Does she expect this sort of thing on a regular basis?

	26-09-2003 21:48									#78
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quote: The thing is, does this shed some light to Yvonne's inner self? I mean, why she was wearing this pendant?

What does that have to do about anything?

My point is that it is your freind that needs to work HIS feelings and stop wondering what it is SHE is feeling.

Yeah, it would be a whole lot easier to get layed in this life we could always interpret what others are feeling, but we can't. In some sense there is no use trying because in the end the only person who is hurt is the person who is too busy trying to figure someone else out that they never bothered to figure themselves out.

If Howard wants to be a coward and deny himself his right to feel than fine, don't tell her. Yet, if he wants to be happy, whether that means with her or without her, then he needs to look at himself as hard as he is looking at her...

	26-09-2003 21:49									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's a warning sign, and not a good one. Does she expect this sort of thing on a regular basis?

She doesn't wear lots of jewelry, carry fancy handbags, etc. from what I seen of her in public. Besides, this Vincent is not a rich bloke.

What I was saying? Yeah, she's not after money if that's what you are asking.

	26-09-2003 21:59									#80
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Hey! Spot the "Cuddle b*tch".

	26-09-2003 23:05									#81
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So, are these people Chinese or not? The whole naming system is confusing me.

	27-09-2003 02:26									#82
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Well, I still don't understand if he send the pendant along with the letter and wore his gift, why she did not ask him why he gave her the gift?

That makes no sense to me.

	27-09-2003 05:35									#83
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Ben,

Remember that was in 1997? So perhaps she knew that he has a thing for her already, which accumulated into the probing question with regards to Valentine's Day that he stupidly didn't answer? Perhaps up till then he was #1 on her list, until his inaction led her to believe that he was blowing her off? I don't know, it's all very complicated.

The real question is whether her wearing of the pendant signifies anything or not.

	27-09-2003 05:48									#84
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quote: So perhaps she knew that he has a thing for her already,

That seems the most likely explanation Question is, did she have a thing for him?

I think your friend is right, that if she wore his pendant, when he was around, then that's a pretty big signal that she likes the gift, and a way of saying thank you.

quote: Perhaps up till then he was #1 on her list, until his inaction led her to believe that he was blowing her off?

First off, girls don't like to ask guys unless they are pretty sure that they are going to get a yes. So if she asked him for the Valentine's date, and him not responding, it would really have thrown her for a loop.

But 4 years is a long time. A lot can happen to change people's feelings.

	27-09-2003 05:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger A friend of mine posted this problem to me. After dwelling on it for quite some time, I am unable to come up with a satisfatory answer, so now I seek enlightenment from the Sages of Apolyton. [On preview, this post is rather long, but please read it through. Thanks] The situation is as follows: Sometime in 1997, my friend Howard met a penpal Yvonne the first time in person. Yvonne was an aspiring actress, Howard was an up and coming professional. Even though they both had been living in the same city, they only communicated by mail before then. Being penpals, they already had a basic understanding of one another. Due to their own hectic schedules, Howard and Yvonne didn't to meet often in person, but they kept in contact, again, mostly by letters. Knowing that Yvonne is an avid reader, Howard had sent several small gifts of books he handpicked to her. Fast forward to the end of 1998. During a semi-public function that took place late at night, Howard reported that Yvonne displayed unusual signs of affection towards him. According to Howard, these nonverbal signs include holding hands (sort of) and touching. Howard went up to shake her hand for one reason or another (I forgot), which ended up to be longer than a normal handshake, with her not withdrawing her hand afterwards, so it was like Howard holding her hand for a very long time (I reckon this is subjective time ). While they were "holding" hands, Yvonne touched the outside of Howard's upper arm (the one connected to the free hand) with her free hand, somewhere between a light tap and a firm grip. I am inclined to think it's much closer to the former. Later on that night, when they had their photo taken, Yvonne moved closer to Howard, so her shoulder and upper arm was pressing (lightly?) against his upper arm. Howard said he judged these actions to be unusual because Yvonne (to his knowledge) is a bit shy and withdrawn and not into physical touches. Try not to let a good ting slip away, yet not being sure of her intentions, he posted the question to some mutual acquaintance. Unfortunately for Howard, they told him not to make much out of it. If he had asked me, I'd tell him to go for the gusto. But then, I didn't know him at the time Sometime during January 1999, when Howard was taling to an assistant of Yvonne's agent, he suddenly asked Howard if he would be available at Valentine's Day. It was a startling question and Howard was caught unprepared. Before Howard was able to formulate an answer, the assistant got sidetracked. Eventually, Howard was unable to give him the answer. Things took a nosedive for Howard soon afterwards when he found out that Yvonne, who became his heart's desire, had a date with somebody else (call him Vincent) on Valentine's Day and started dating him shortly after. Fast forward to 2003. While Howard has been continuously blaming a bunch of people for him losing out on his Big Chance, he is still getting along well with Yvonne. Through one way or another he found out that she still hates Stephen, her former boyfriend, who apparently ripped her heart to pieces during their relationship. So now Howard is debating whether to couch Yvonne on ways to put Stephen out of her mind. On one hand, he would love to see her to finally rid her of the anguish and pain stemming from her prior relationship. On the other hand, Howard feels that he's so much better than Vincent, and that he is the one person who can bring Yvonne true happiness (yes, yes, I know...). This wound in her psyche, he reckons, is keeping her to completely fall into the laps of Vincent. In other words, this wound keeps the door open for Howard. Yes, that's what he thinks, don't ask me. The question is then, what should he do? Should him help her to forget the past, thus giving up whatever slim chance he still may have? Or should he let things be, cringing at the thoughts of Yvonne suffering from being gnawed from inside, thus being rather immoral, but will be better (according to him) in the long run? So, what do you think, o Great Sages of Apolyton? [I hate him badgering me with the question. ]

Are you a DL of Speer? Obviously he should make a play for her and straight up ask for a date. Duh. If she says no, just date around and try to get her jealous. If that doesn't work, just date around and forget her. this guy has no balls.

BTW, is this "guy", you?

	27-09-2003 05:51									#86
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I just responded to the first post, but I see everyone was thinking what I thought...no that I read down. Even to the Speer part.

Will keep reading and see if anyone accused UW of being the dude.

	27-09-2003 06:06									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Howard doesn't just want sex with Yvonne, he wants her heart.

Then he should show some balls and ask her out. "Howard" is a wimp.

	27-09-2003 06:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Will keep reading and see if anyone accused UW of being the dude.

Japher beat you to it

	27-09-2003 06:20									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Yup. Urban Ranger, I mean Howard, better tell her that he loves her...

We do think alike.

	27-09-2003 06:22									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Japher beat you to it

So you are Howard? Come on. Grow a nut. Show some self-respect. Woman will respect you more for it as well.