26-09-2003 14:46									#1
	Scenario Under Construction: Fall of Rome Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Back in Civ2 days I made a scenario about the fall of the West Roman Empire.

When Civ3 came out, I tried making a version for that game as well. Of course, it was doomed from the start. I did manage to create a "playable" version, but thanks to a AI ignoring borders (which lead to Huns invading Carthago) and no pre-setting diplomacy, it was doomed from the start.

But in Conquests, new features will be added to make it possible to create full fledged scenarios for Civ3! Finally!

I made this thread to get feedback from the community on my project. I'm not going to beg for art here or something, don't worry.

My current ideas:

- The scenario starts in 428 (Vandals crossed the straight of Gibraltar. Also, 428 is a standard starting year for many wargamers).
- It will end sometime between the 470s and 590s, at least before the Arab invasions.

Civs:

- West Romans
- Byzantines
- Sassanids
- Armenians
- Huns
- Visigoths
- Ostrogoths
- Vandals
- Sueves
- Britons
- Picts (incl. Scots)
- Francs (incl. Lombards, Allemans, Burgundians)
- Slavs (incl. Gepids)
- Saxons (incl. Angles, Jutes, Frisians)
- Moors

More information, on units, wonders, leaders, etc. Will follow. But in the meantime, does anyone have any ideas for this scenario, or any insights in any of the civs (mainly, units, leaders, and so on)? Any help is greatly appreciated.

	27-09-2003 03:03									#2
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Civ of the Week:

Civ: Moors (or Berbers)
Country: Mauretania
Location: North West Africa
Leader: ???
Governement: Tribal
Military: light infantry & cavalry (horses & camels)
Diplomacy: locked war with the West Romans

Description:

Collection of tribes lead by various chiefs and kings, some under West Roman rule, some outside the Roman sphere of influence. When the Vandals invaded North Africa from Spain in 428, they enlisted Vandal tribes as their allies against the Romans. Many tribes, tired of Roman oppression, joined the Vandal warbands and participated in the conquest of Carthago and even the sacking of Rome itself.

Not long after, wars broke out between the Vandals and various Moorish tribes. Big parts of Romanized Africa, mainly inland areas, came under Moorish rule.

Many decades later, when the Byzantines came to re-take Carthago, Moorish tribes joined their ranks. Under Belisarius, they helped fight the Vandals in Africa, and the Goths in Italy. However, once again this alliance was short lived, and not long after the Moors once again took up arms and conquered large parts of Byzantine Africa. They held these territories up to the Arab conquest of the 7th century.

Role in this scenario:

Marginal. They will be battling the West Romans in North Africa for some time, and their role outside of NW Africa will be non-existant. Possible relationships with the Vandals and/or Byzantines, though keep in mind that the Byzantines are allied with the West Romans (while the Vandals are at war with both).

Strategy:

Team up with a bigger dog (pref. Vandals), and try to profit from the spoils of war. The Moors will only have a few underdeveloped cities, and few good military units to command, so a direct 1on1 confrontation with a bigger foe (Vandal, West Roman or Byzantine) might have to wait until they are weakened and you have grown. Utilize your cavalry units for hit and run attacks against unguarded cities, workers and resources.

Last edited by Saint Marcus on 27-09-2003 at 03:13

	28-09-2003 09:48									#3
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Looks like a pretty good scenario. You should wait until the Conquests Fall of Rome developer diary is out if you need some ideas.

	28-09-2003 09:53									#4
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Umm Conquests is already releasing a Fall of Rome scenario.

	29-09-2003 08:28									#5
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That may be so, but there is no reason that there can't be two or more of them. The more, the merrier I say!

	29-09-2003 18:58									#6
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To be a smartass, I think conquests is coming with a scn aout the RISE of Rome

I don´t care if there are more of them - as long they´re good

	29-09-2003 19:28									#7
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quote: Looks like a pretty good scenario.

Thanks! It will be a Civ3 version (with improvements) of my Civ2 scenario, Fall of the West Roman Empire.

quote: You should wait until the Conquests Fall of Rome developer diary is out if you need some ideas.

I already tried making it for Civ3 vanilla and PTW, but they were too limited. So I'm just doing my homework now, and will build it when Conquests comes out.

quote: Umm Conquests is already releasing a Fall of Rome scenario.

I wish But as BeBro pointed out, it's a Rise of Rome scenario.

quote: I don´t care if there are more of them - as long they´re good

I second that, and I will do my best.


and thanks all for replying. Do any of you have some insights in the era as well, or any ideas I could/should incorporate?

	29-09-2003 19:56									#8
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Civ of the Week update

Units:

To avoid cluttering up the build lists too much, most civs will "only" be able to chose from 5 (land)units at one time to build in their cities.

For the Moors these will be: 3 light infantry units (spearman, javelineer, moorish infantry), 1 light cavalry unit, and the camel. The Moors will have their own unique tech-tree, city styles and an UU in the form of the Camel.

Javelineers and Spearmen formed the bulk of the Moorish forces of those days. I added one extra infantry unit for balance's sake. Noblemen often rode on horses, but they too were lightly armed. Their crown-unit is the Camel, with decent stats and special abilities. None of the Moorish units requires Iron (big plus), and only the two cavalry units require horses and camels, respectively.

Research:

Research is limited. The Moors can't get any new units by getting new techs, so won't get any archers, siege engines or boats. Nor stronger cavalry or infantry units. They also won't get new governement types. They will however, be able to "convert" to Christianity, and perhaps aquire some other advances.

	29-09-2003 19:57									#9
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Not to be a smartass but there is a Rise of Rome and a Fall of Rome scenario.

	29-09-2003 20:09									#10
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Hmm. pretty sweet, I'm looking forward to it. Hope it's any good.

Still, I'll build my own. Ha!

	02-10-2003 02:25									#11
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Hi guys,
There will be a designer diary on this subject, and that will unveil more of the details.

But the basic idea is that Rome has a western half and an eastern half, in a locked alliance, and if either side loses 5 cities (that's right, it's a multiple city version of Elimination), then Rome loses.

I haven't played it since midway through the beta, but I remember starting as one of the barbarians coming in from the northeast. You receive 3 or 4 settlers and a whole bunch of horseback units to kick start your siege. It promises to be a lot of fun. Hang on, the developer diary will show more.

Best,
Jeff Foley
Atari

	02-10-2003 06:35									#12
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what are you using?

	03-10-2003 05:59									#13
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as in what? pot?

	04-10-2003 05:44									#14
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Hahaha!
But Marcus, keep doing yours. Firaxis´s one can kick @ss, or it can suck (after all it is firaxis, we never know ), so your can be a cool one (it looks promising).
And besides, you can focus on an aspect Firaxis didn´t focus on so much, as in your game being more diplo-oriented, or more war oriented.
But keep doing your homework: it is worth it.

Nuke

	08-10-2003 16:25									#15
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So apparently I was wrong - Firaxis´conquest seems to be dealing with the fall of Rome too (unless Nuclear Master is right that they make two conquests about both rise and fall). However, another good Rome scn is always welcome

	11-10-2003 00:09									#16
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thanks all for the support, I really appreciate it.

and sorry all for the delay in the update. I've been busy with school work...and I'm still debating certain features of the scenario.

Mainly...the timeframe.

When should the scenario start, and when should it end?

starting dates...either 370 AD or 428 AD.

370, the coming of the Huns. The Roman Empire was still intact. It would really be a fall of Rome, the empire slowly giving away under external presures. However, it's likely that Firaxis' scenario will start at this date, so all the more reason for me not to use it as a starting date. But an even bigger reason is historal accuracy. By starting in 370, I will never get the Goths into SW France, or the Vandals into Spain and Africa. Especcially because there will be no scripting for events. I can't give the Goths any cities in France on a certain date, or anything of that sort. Also, in 370, some of the key players in Rome's fall, were still relatively unimportant.

428 seems a good date. The Visigoths have settled in France, the Vandals and Sueves in Spain, the Romans have left Britain. Historically, the Vandals crossed Gibraltar in this year. Using some artistic licence, I'll also use this as a starting date for the Rome vs Hun wars, and the coming of the Saxons in Britain. Not entirely accurate, but again, since I can't use events it's the best I could do.

So most likely, the scenario will start in 428.

But where does it end? 453 (fall of the Huns)? 478 (fall of Rome)? 500? 600?

I was thinking about making it last all the way up to 600, a bit before the Arab conquests. This would allow for greater historical roles for the Francs, Ostrogoths, Byzantines, among others. The theme would focus less on Rome's fall, and more on "make your nation the most powerfull in Europe". Probably a lot like Firaxis Middle Ages scenario will be like. It allows for more freedom for the player.

This does however create a problem with some of the Civs. Mainly, the Lombards and the Huns. The Lombards didn't play a huge role in the 5th century, but were a key player in the 6th century. On the other hand, we have the Huns. They played a huge role in the 5th century, but disappeared from existance long before the 6th century.

No matter what timeframe I use, the Huns remain a problem. After 453, they didn't play a big role in Europe anymore. I want it to be possible for the Huns to own all of Europe (as they tried to do), but I don't want to make it an inevitability. More so, I want it to be able for the Huns to be destroyed completely! Certainly if the scenario runs all the way through the 6th century.

So what to do? Hmm. I think I'll sleep on it for a night, and make up my mind then.

	12-10-2003 22:47									#17
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Update:

2 additional civs: Lombards & Burgundians

Additional features: Plagues & Mutli-king regencide.


Does anyone know if one civ can have 3 kings, and others only 2?