26-09-2003 16:34									#1
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This is not a thread that bashes a certain religion, but I just find it weird, that we are starting to have new cases of pedophiles as well. Some priest fellow just molested many kids, and got caught. Church KNEW about it for a longer time, but they didn't say a thing to police or anyone else, because they wanted to solve the thing amongst themselves. But did they solve it? No. It continued. So what is wrong with these people?

I've found in general, that the 'legistative' side of church, what ever councils they might call it is often rotten and dirty. And they make a bad name for the religion. These guys are something else let me tell you that much. They are believing in the good side of the molesters, but how about protecting our children from these monsters?
Do pedophiles get these jobs, because it has certain appeal to them in some weird way, or do they become pedophiles there? Anyway, I think there should be more responsibility put on these guys who knows it, but doesn't do anything real about it. And frankly, I don't know how those bastards sleep at night. I refuse to respect any of these pedophile protecting. I refuse to listen to these people talking about higher values and my religion, as they are rotten sexual predators or their protectors, so that makes them hypocrites in my eyes.
We should group up and kick their butts.

	26-09-2003 16:42									#2
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What's wrong with the church? WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE CHURCH! ISN'T THIS OBVIOUS??!!!11

It has a roof with a pointy tower on it, that's what's wrong with it. It looks ugly. Viva mosque.

	26-09-2003 17:07									#3
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Does depend what you mean by Church.

If we are talking about the organised church, I guess it suffers from what many large organisations suffer from. Too much self interest, and lack of direction, and the people that man the top posts have forgotten why they are there.

The church as a whole (ie, the people) are no different to the people that make up any religeous group, you will find all sorts in all religions.

my personal view is :-
There are as many faiths as there are people,
organised religion will always be hijacked by people who have alteria motives or who forget the reason for being there.

Have a faith of your own, and stick with it ! Its no better or worse than the person's next to you.

	26-09-2003 17:21									#4
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My personl view on this matter is probably offending to some ppl., but oh well I dont really care about all this pc stuff.
Its against human nature to be a (catholic) priest. To not have sex or other pleasures (or feel guilty about it). Not being allowed to love someone besides a god you cant touch or feel. To be in this selve-destructive mind-set ("Im a sinner! Im a sinner! bad! bad! bad!"). Did anyone ever see a priest who really seemed happy? They have a) all the time a serious face or b) they give you the enlightend look, which is a mask you can clearly identify on most of them.

Depression and ****ed up minds lead to such stuff as pedophilia from priests.

Of course this is only my opinion, you may have observed diffrently, but thats my conclusion from what I have seen.

	26-09-2003 17:35									#5
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The real problem is that religion became obsolete and no one in the high spheres noticed

	26-09-2003 17:49									#6
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I think the problem with the church is they don't buy enough bananas.

	26-09-2003 18:44									#7
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quote: Its against human nature to be a (catholic) priest. To not have sex or other pleasures (or feel guilty about it).

So all forms of celibacy are unnatural or unhealthy?

quote: Not being allowed to love someone besides a god you cant touch or feel.

So love = sex? There are plenty of ways to love someone without involving sexual pleasure.

quote: To be in this selve-destructive mind-set ("Im a sinner! Im a sinner! bad! bad! bad!").

Why would priests be special in this regard? We all have our sinful pleasures.

quote: Did anyone ever see a priest who really seemed happy?

Yes.

I think the problem is that some of these priests are not supposed to be priests, that they are not suited for a life of celibacy. It's not easy, and certainly not for everyone.

	26-09-2003 18:51									#8
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The Church is what is has always been - a safe haven for frigid males and pederasts where they can hide in safety from the real world.

Your question should have been, "What is wrong with humanity that they didn't recognise what the Church was for 2,000 years?"

Kingdom of Heaven? I don't think so.

Keys of Heaven given to St Peter? Sheesh, if anyone gave me the keys to Heaven, I'd make damn certain no clown in a pointy hat got hold of them.

	26-09-2003 18:54									#9
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Celibacy alone doesn't necessarily do it. I should know. I have never in my life felt any desire to fondle little boys.
With that said, it would probably lessen the problem if the Catholics let married men join the presbytery like we do. Priests are meant to help and support others, so marriage doesn't automatically render them unfit for duty. Married priests have more practice, so to speak.

	26-09-2003 19:01									#10
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There are a couple of things at play here. First, modern society puts a premium on protection rather than other things that the church holds dear (such as forgiveness) and this caught the church off guard. This showed that the church administration was out of touch with its flock on some issues. The second item is related to the first--the church needs to rededicate itself to its pastoral mission and has to put the proper personnel in place to make a success of it.

This seems to be the scoop for the US Roman Catholic Church, at least. Your diocese/schismatic church/sect/denomination may vary.

	26-09-2003 19:07									#11
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OK, on further reflection I must admit the VAST MAJORITY of "people of the cloth" are not in for the easy access to children and the cloak of secrecy around their activities.

A lot of good has been achieved by many religions.

But when it comes to child molesters, I strongly believe in the Christian thing to do - namely, tie rocks around their necks and throw them in the sea.

At least, that's my understanding of the Christian teaching on the subject.

	26-09-2003 19:12									#12
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Where's forgivance?

	26-09-2003 19:14									#13
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Aaaa! I'm finally a king! Hurra!

	26-09-2003 19:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy The Church is what is has always been - a safe haven for frigid males and pederasts where they can hide in safety from the real world.

People such as Oscar Romero, Carlos Belo, Desmond Tutu, and Mother Teresa would dispute that.

On the other hand, HERE are some other problems looming on the horizon.

quote: VATICAN CITY, Sept. 23 -- Under new rules being drafted by the Vatican to crack down on "abuses" in the Roman Catholic Mass, altar boys will be given preference over altar girls, who should serve during the rites only in special cases, Vatican officials said today. The proposals, which have not yet been formally presented to Pope John Paul II, come at a time when some parts of the church are concerned that having altar girls might lead to a female priesthood.

(As if the existence of nuns might lead to a female priesthood )

quote: The new norms also would prohibit dances and applause during the mass.

quote: The proposed new rules would roll back some de facto changes that resulted from the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meeting of church officials that altered many Roman Catholic practices. Among them was an increased role for lay people in helping conduct worship services, as well as reaching out to other Christian sects.

The heirarchy keeps forgetting that Church = heirarchy + religious + layity

	26-09-2003 19:20									#15
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I think the concern in the case of "altar girls" is that, unlike nuns, they serve in something like the role of clergy. I don't know about the Catholics, but for us, "acolyte" is actually the very lowest form of ordained clergyman(tonsured, wears an orarion, and everything), and that's only a step above theoretical altar-girls.

	26-09-2003 19:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith People such as Oscar Romero, Carlos Belo, Desmond Tutu, and Mother Teresa would dispute that.

Erm... how many of those are alive? Or sane?

Nevermind, check the later post I made. It comes over like the entire clergy are screwing anything that moves, which is clearly not the case.

JP2 certainly isn't up to it, for a start.

	26-09-2003 20:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So all forms of celibacy are unnatural or unhealthy?

Gee, for someone who is somewhat slighted by the remark that celibacy is "unatural" you sure don't have any problems insulting homosexuals by stating that sex acts between two people of same gender is unatural.

If you want to throw rocks, you will get rocks thrown back at you in one form or another.

	26-09-2003 20:32									#18
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Ok, the priest caught in here was not catholic priest. Sure I understand they are human as well, but then again.. bah.. and I meant church more as an organisation and their ways of dealing with obvious problems. I know it's not that simple, and that there is no perfect model of handling these things, but I think the model of trying to keep it down and work it out is not working if you don't root the problems out. Priest or no priest, but if you do wrong you should be punished for it, just like everyone else. But this is not attack against religions or priests in general or church in general. So don't get offended too easily...

I saw just some time ago an argument in television where the representor of church (sorry for the lack of better terms) said that it's a problem, because the ones with obvious problems of liking little kids too much are also human, and as humans they deserve another chance, chance to make it better. As humans, they are ultimately good and they must be forgiven. To this point I agree, but the actions taken, or NOT taken I don't agree with. Gods children, humans, what ever but giving chance after chance to not molest kids in his job is not very human IMO. After all, there are victims. So this is why I'm against the hush hush policy.

	26-09-2003 21:00									#19
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You have encapsulated the problem well.

	26-09-2003 21:20									#20
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quote: Gee, for someone who is somewhat slighted by the remark that celibacy is "unatural" you sure don't have any problems insulting homosexuals by stating that sex acts between two people of same gender is unatural.

Own goal.

I'm making a consistent argument in favour of celibacy on both points.

	26-09-2003 21:21									#21
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3 men walk into a confessional; a preist, a rapist, and a child molestor... oh, and two other men...

Last edited by Japher on 26-09-2003 at 21:27

	26-09-2003 21:23									#22
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My question is how does the Catholic church reconcile its policy of condemning homosexuality with its apparent policy of continually moving repeat sex offenders (who have also committed a homosexual act) to new congregations.

	26-09-2003 21:36									#23
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It can't reconcile the policy. The (long discarded) policy couldn't be reconciled with a lot of its other policies. That's why it was a bad policy.

Last edited by DanS on 26-09-2003 at 21:44

	26-09-2003 21:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Own goal. I'm making a consistent argument in favour of celibacy on both points.

Only if you look at it in a particularly twisted way.

It is not consistent to say that celibacy is natural while homosexuals are not.

	26-09-2003 21:52									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I think the problem with the church is they don't buy enough bananas.

But whats really interesting is that when you eat a banana youre supposed to say (according to Orthodox and Conservative Judaism) the bracha (blessing) for VEGETABLES (borei pree ha'adamah) rather than the bracha for fruits (borie prees ha etz) cause the banana tree isnt considered technically a tree in Jewish law. Dont ask me why.


If i see more on the status of bananas under Jewish law, i will post it.

	26-09-2003 21:54									#26
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What's wrong with church? Really?

Hypocracy.

	26-09-2003 21:58									#27
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here we go

"What is a fruit? Technically, "fruit" is defined as the "edible seed bearing structure of a plant". This definition includes melons, berries, tropical fruits such as bananas, as well as other popular fruits. Horticulturists define fruits as "the edible food of a woody perennial". A perennial is a plant that lives for two years or more. An annual is a plant that dies or degenerates after one year. The Shulchan Aruch and horticulturists consider the fruit of an annual a vegetable. A banana is a perfect example of a tropical fruit that grows on an annual plant. After one season the banana bush dies and a new shoot grows in its place. Hence a banana is halachically considered a vegetable and the bracha, the blessing, made on a banana is borei pri hoadama . "

	26-09-2003 22:00									#28
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thought y'all might also be interested in this


"RULE #7:
Raisins or bananas added to cereal do not require their own blessing since they are secondary to the cereal (10). When the main intent, however, is for the fruit, a separate blessing should be made over them (11)."

Shana tova (happy new year)

	26-09-2003 22:03									#29
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one last observation

"Some produce only ripens after being harvested. There are certain types of dates that only become edible after being harvested. They can only be tithed when they are edible. The work, Libun Halacha argues that bananas are harvested in a hard, green state, when they are completely inedible. Traditionally, they were tithed after harvesting, before being sold. Libun Halacha writes that this is in error, for only after ripening do they first become obligated.

The esrog is somewhat similar in that it turns yellow off the tree. The Libun Halacha chides the Moadim Uzmanim, who compared the banana and the esrog. The banana is not at all fit to eat when harvested. You can only make the proper brocha when the banana turns yellow, and that is precisely when you would take the ma'aser. The esrog, as we said, is not a matter of unripe fruit. As long as it will turn yellow, it is the right type of fruit, and that's all we were looking for. As far as eating is concerned, there is no difference in the edibility of the esrog when it is green or yellow"

	26-09-2003 22:08									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Japher What's wrong with church? Really? Hypocracy.

There is no hypocrisy in the Church's teaching here. Molestation of Children is a mortal sin and unless the perpetrators repent they will suffer the pains of Hell for their sin.