27-09-2003 12:41									#1
	280ad (43): Orders, Shots, Discussion Remove this text

please give me orders and suggestions for the turn. Also post any GS reccomendations and information into this thread.

--Togas

	01-10-2003 00:47									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Good news, our troops in the mountains near el Alamo have resisted an attack!!!



Every one can get the save for checking in the other thread. I just received it. I will post more comments once I revise it more in detail. I'm sorry not to be able to be in the chat but I hope the comments here can be useful.

	01-10-2003 02:47									#3
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Ok, I can take part on it



Stormbringer offers Education, not accepted yet.

	01-10-2003 03:15									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No-one from GS is online to discuss the offer of Education (sent unaccepted).

Also, there is a tall stack of ND troops 1 SW of Alamo, along with probably most of GoW's stuff including the captured cats in Alamo itself. I'm thinking that an attack on Alamo right now could be suicidal.

	01-10-2003 06:53									#5
	Tired of ads?

Togas,

Nuc Winter wanted me to let you know that he is requesting that we sit on the save until he is able to convene with you.

I'm also trying to figure out who at Gathering Storm played their save, offering us Education unaccepted, and whether they want something for it. So far notyoueither and OctavianX are both completely clueless on the issue and said there isn't even anything in their forum. They suggested asking Theseus about it, but he's never in chat.

I've requested that they find out what on earth the deal with Education is and get back to me.

	01-10-2003 11:04									#6
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I will hold the save until the deadline tomorrow. PLEASE post moves and orders for me. I will play the save tomorrow from my office.

--Togas

	01-10-2003 11:50									#7
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The attacks were made on us with Cats; I'm very sure of that. We should just stay on the Mountain till we can get our own Cats there. It really was quite unfortunate that GS lost those 8 Cats to GoW. GoW had none in Salmaca/Alamo before this turn.

	01-10-2003 18:05									#8
	Remove this text

If we are going to stay at the mountains (and it also seems the better strategy at this moment) we should send some more troops to help resisting the catapult attacks or GoW will attack us once our troops are weak enough.

How much? That's difficult to say. But provided that Pamplona must also be defended, I propose to send one pike from Pamplona this turn and substitute it in Pamplona with the Madrid Volunteers. In 290 we could send the new pikemen that are being trained in Pamplona also.

	01-10-2003 22:44									#9
	Support Apolyton

Am I going to get any military orders or not?!?!

I'm at the office and cannot idle in chat like I used to when I worked in the Juvenile division. I plan to spend my lunch hour playing the save and I'd like some help on it.

--Togas

	01-10-2003 23:04									#10
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We need to talk with the folks from GS at the very least. NucWinter should, we hope, also be back online for the chat.

	01-10-2003 23:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If you talk to them, post it here. I'm busy at work for the next hour and cannot chat. I will review thist hread before playing the save.

--Togas

	01-10-2003 23:17									#12
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I´m on chat right now, gonna get some orders soon;

	01-10-2003 23:22									#13
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My sugestions:
Fortify the pikeman in New Madrid (Maybe they could be called something like "Madrid Defenders"), send Madrid Volunteers to Pamplona and fortify also.
Get another pike from Pamplona and send to the mountain near Alamo to help our troops there.
Fortify all units in that mountain.
New Madrid: build pike again.
Education deal: Don't accept if we don't know which kind of deal they want, because in any case it is not very useful for us.

I think that's all

	01-10-2003 23:42									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Looks good, OliverFA. I´m also talking to bigfree about the possibility of evacuating the wounded pikes.

[edit] We need orders for the El Nino & Duke Aidun worker stack.
Also It´d be good if someone took a look at Pamplona´s Workforce, I looked at it and we can change one mountain wf for a plains one to get some more food without threatening to mkae the pike take longer.

	01-10-2003 23:45									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Here are my reccomendations:

Madrid Vol. (pike) moves 4-1 into Pamplona
New Pike from NM moves 7-4-4 towards Pamplona
Jesuit Guard (pike) moves 1-1
BigFree's Pikes moves 3
Aidun's Vols moves 3
Pikemen of the Holy trinity moves 1-4
Pikemen of Divinity moves 1-4
Brothers of Christ moves 3

Road with El Nino and Duke Aidun

All other units remain fortified or busy doing worker tasks

This moves some of the injured units back towards Pamplona while leaving them protected. GoW really can't afford to attack with anythin else besides Cats right now on any of our units. Gs has there attention the South and if the move too many units out of Alama/Salmnaca they will be susceptable to an attack by our MI's on the Mountain and our Knights. GoW may figure we have 10 Knights. I'll bet they are scared and have decided to just wait till they can outproduce us and GS. Our counter to this bet is that War Weariness will set in and make production level off for both GoW and ND.

	01-10-2003 23:48									#16
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I have not been able to contact anyone form GS. I would reccomned accepting Education as it leads us closer to Navigation. It does us no harm in accepting it. GS is our life long ally; just because they did not tell us they were sending it as a gift does not mean it was not intended to be one.

	02-10-2003 00:00									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I´ve called Arrian and he´s busy for a long time to come, but I´ve asked him to post a call for chat on his forum and I´m waiting to see if there is any result;

	02-10-2003 02:21									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Attempted to do the save in a brief chat today with BigFree, Arnelos, and History Guy but did not finish before my lunch break was up. BigFree is to play the save after talking to GS (AsleepAtTheWheel was online).

BF, please post results in this thread.

--TOgas

	02-10-2003 02:28									#19
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Ok, GS has requested that we retreat are units for right now. And to wait a few turns before such a manuever. They want to do all turn together from now on, theirs and ours.

I am still talking to GS right now, the turn has yet to be done.

	02-10-2003 02:45									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Retreat them out of catapult range to the forest. Bring in a few extra pikes if we believe GoW will attack them during their retreat.

--Togas

	02-10-2003 02:47									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

ok

	02-10-2003 03:11									#22
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Here are the results:









Road with El Nino and Duke Aidun
WF in Pamplona switched from Mountain (WF#4 )to Grassland (WF#1). (shields not needed this turn)

New Pike in NM moved towards Pamplona.

All other units moved as Pictures suggest.

	02-10-2003 04:48									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Also, there is a tall stack of ND troops 1 SW of Alamo, along with probably most of GoW's stuff including the captured cats in Alamo itself. I'm thinking that an attack on Alamo right now could be suicidal.

Just As I said before, at my various visist in the commanders tent, I fear that if we attack, Salamanca and manage to free it from its opressors, ND will immediately attack with their stack and occupy it, or ND will attack Pamplona, which is a worse defended because we need fresh defensive troops tio defend the new city.

If we attack we need to do that with support from GS otherwise it is suicide.

Soldier Aidun Cian of the Royal Spanish Army

	02-10-2003 04:54									#24
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I have not sent the save onwards due to reservations by both Aidun and Arnelos as to what I did.

	02-10-2003 07:28									#25
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MilOps log (for Togas):

quote: BigFree> We are thinking of making a pretty bold move now asleepathewheel> oh yeah? BigFree> We want to move a satck of 5 Pikes and 5 MI's to the tile that is 7 of Alamo asleepathewheel> intriguing. I'm loading the game right now BigFree> It would force both GoW and ND to commit troops to it BigFree> we will try to cut the road BigFree> but its more likely that those troops would be wiped out, but taking some of them wit us * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_AWAY BigFree> We were hoping that GS would be able to take advantage of this move by know that soem of their units would be tied up asleepathewheel> ok, one more second, Theseus emailed us the played game last turn, not the latest one, so my shots will be slightly out of date asleepathewheel> how many units will you have left in the city? BigFree> sorry asleepathewheel> its cool BigFree> had phone call asleepathewheel> its hard for me to tell what units we have in position, as my info is slightly dated BigFree> that will leave 6 pikes 4 Knights 8 Cats and 2 MI's left in Pamplona asleepathewheel> ok * opd has joined #MilOps opd> g'day asleepathewheel> ah asleepathewheel> hi asleepathewheel> ok, I will try to give a short run down of our units in the area asleepathewheel> we have: barc 4-4-1: asleepathewheel> 5 Pike asleepathewheel> 12 Knights asleepathewheel> 5 MedInf asleepathewheel> 1 Cat asleepathewheel> 3 Workers asleepathewheel> so it doesn't look like we can reach much next turn with those 12 knights BigFree> damn BigFree> ok * opd has quit IRC (Quit: ) asleepathewheel> we also have 2 knights around meridia asleepathewheel> (not sure where those got to asleepathewheel> I meant murcia on that last part asleepathewheel> hmm asleepathewheel> what to do asleepathewheel> I'm not quite sure BigFree> Togas is playing the save now asleepathewheel> if you move this turn, then they can take the stack, because we can't reach there soon BigFree> I would count on him doing what I said asleepathewheel> ah, ok asleepathewheel> so is the plan for us to move to alamo, or take meridia? BigFree> Well, we were justhoping tooprovide cover for you whiile you did what you needed to do BigFree> I would count on him doing what I said asleepathewheel> ah, ok asleepathewheel> so is the plan for us to move to alamo, or take meridia? BigFree> Well, we were justhoping tooprovide cover for you whiile you did what you needed to do BigFree> plus we wanted to cut the Ivory asleepathewheel> I see. hmm. I am pretty rushed right now (wife will be home any minute) hence why I'm a bit scattered BigFree> Since they were pummeling us with those Cats you lost to GoW we figured we needed to move now * opd has joined #MilOps opd> allo again opd> sorry about that BigFree> np asleepathewheel> ah, can you stay on this time opd? I have to leave very soon asleepathewheel> I will post in our forum what has been said thus far. BigFree> ok opd> yeah I can stay BigFree> [13:45] * opd (~dwyerowen@82-36-92-149.cable.ubr04.harb.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Quit: ) BigFree> [13:45] asleepathewheel> we also have 2 knights around meridia BigFree> [13:46] asleepathewheel> (not sure where those got to BigFree> [13:46] asleepathewheel> I meant murcia on that last part BigFree> [13:47] asleepathewheel> hmm BigFree> [13:47] asleepathewheel> what to do BigFree> [13:48] asleepathewheel> I'm not quite sure BigFree> [13:49] BigFree> Togas is playing the save now BigFree> [13:49] asleepathewheel> if you move this turn, then they can take the stack, because we can't reach there soon BigFree> [13:49] BigFree> I would count on him doing what I said BigFree> [13:49] asleepathewheel> ah, ok BigFree> [13:49] asleepathewheel> so is the plan for us to move to alamo, or take meridia? BigFree> [13:50] BigFree> Well, we were justhoping tooprovide cover for you whiile you did what you needed to do BigFree> [13:50] BigFree> plus we wanted to cut the Ivory BigFree> [13:51] asleepathewheel> I see. hmm. I am pretty rushed right now (wife will be home any minute) hence why I'm a bit scattered BigFree> [13:51] BigFree> Since they were pummeling us with those Cats you lost to GoW we figured we needed to move now BigFree> just what you missed OPD asleepathewheel> ah great opd> cheers asleepathewheel> I apparently have no idea how to do that asleepathewheel> anywya BigFree> I was also wondering if GS could build a new bas of operations North of NM asleepathewheel> I see the urgency to move now opd> yeah you could do with moving out asleepathewheel> new base where? BigFree> If you gave us Sirocco, we could use more tiles for Barcelona BigFree> I was thinkg that 9-9-9 of NM would be good; we'd need another road though asleepathewheel> true, it might increase our turn around time for unit transport. asleepathewheel> esp. if we are shipping units south BigFree> yes opd> how badly do you need the tiles for barc asleepathewheel> I will post to our forum (pretty dead there lately) opd> wait hmmn BigFree> Barc would be able t use the tile 8-9 of itself asleepathewheel> I don't see sirroco and barc overlapping, am I wrong or are you thinking of New Madrid opd> you mean NM? * Arnelos_AWAY is now known as Arnelos opd> Re-baseing would be a pain in the ass opd> North of NM would defeat the purpose without roads through the jungle asleepathewheel> yes BigFree> It also has the effect of us having another unit pruducing city that can shre tiles with NM BigFree> Roads would definetle have to come first asleepathewheel> we could shift the workers in Sir to the coast, that would give you another irrigated plain asleepathewheel> sir is on hill, not sure you would get that much produciont out of that square for a while, with one worker in the area opd> what are your plans regarding the troops next to the Alamo? BigFree> I have to reboot BigFree> we plan to move them all 1 BigFree> then try to cut the raod BigFree> brbr * BigFree has quit IRC (Quit: ) opd> Moving them 1???? asleepathewheel> I think he means adjacenet to alamo? opd> But they'll just get hit with cats untill they're all redlined? asleepathewheel> yes, basically Vox revisted asleepathewheel> I think the notion is to move them in, have the enemy kill of the units, and we swoop in and take meridia nd the rest of the south with our knights asleepathewheel> using the 10 units as decoys asleepathewheel> and also to pillage the road from alamo to the rest of ND to sever the ivory pipe opd> I think thats a really bad idea opd> I don't think GS are in a position to launch a southern offensive asleepathewheel> I think it might be useful in 2-3 turns, asleepathewheel> exactly, our knights are at least 2.5 moves away opd> GoW can take out the RP units by themselves with little loss * BigFree has joined #MilOps * ChanServ sets mode: +o BigFree * BigFree sets mode: +psnk Right opd> While ND take out an attack we make opd> What can your units on the mountain adjacent to the ALamo see? opd> can you see any cats stationed outside Alamo? opd> are you playing the save now? opd> hello? opd> hello? asleepathewheel> um anyone home? asleepathewheel> I think BF said Togas was playing the save currently asleepathewheel> or something BigFree> sorry BigFree> I can send you a screen, but we see a **** load of ANsars 1 of Alamo opd> any catapults in the stack? asleepathewheel> hmm BigFree> nope BigFree> I think all Cats are in Alamo asleepathewheel> cats stamped GS on the bottome opd> you guys aren't seriously going to move further into GoW territory? BigFree> Yes opd> hmmmmn BigFree> That is what Togas wants to do BigFree> I was against it BigFree> but he doesn't want to just sit there Arnelos> people, let's not leave Pamplona underdefended... just a thought asleepathewheel> Its a few turns premature BigFree> I tried to tell him it would be better to coordinate asleepathewheel> we just aren't in position to do anything yet opd> you guys should be retreating Arnelos> I agree BigFree> With the lack of communication between us he felt the need to do something Arnelos> for future reference, it would help IMMEASURABLY if GS and RP would do all warturns together BigFree> I agree asleepathewheel> we understand, frankly GS has recently had a lack of communication amongst itself, if you know what I mean asleepathewheel> NYE is gone, my computer was dead for a week, etc etc opd> no one is around opd> shiber, zeit, Deepo opd> all gone opd> well not gone but not as active BigFree> WOOT asleepathewheel> so that is where we are at, we pitch in where we can, but... BigFree> Ok, Togas did not play yet BigFree> He left instructions for me to play it asleepathewheel> cool BigFree> 5:7P1hrew: BigFree> I had planned to rotate out the injured units back to our terr opd> I think maybe we should look into the forum exchange thing again BigFree> wht is that? opd> Someone from GS joins RP and someone from RP joins GS opd> to act as conduits opd> or communication links asleepathewheel> I have to go guys, the wife is home, OPD, can you copy this stuff to our forum? opd> ok asleepathewheel> bye * asleepathewheel has quit IRC (Quit: ) BigFree> That woud be good BigFree> I will join GS BigFree> If it is ok with our team opd> ok I'll bring it up in the forum and make sure everyone is ok with it BigFree> good BigFree> I will play the turn now BigFree> rotating the units out BigFree> but keeping enough there to cause the discomfort BigFree> making them keep units at home opd> how many? BigFree> There are 10 there now 5 pikes 5 MI's BigFree> I will send 4 away and replace 2 of them with healthy units opd> thats cool BigFree> so8 wil end up ther I beilieve opd> you don't want too few to be susceptible to serious cat damage opd> BTW last turn they captured cats between each other to give them an extra turn of movement opd> We don't really know but they may do the same again to attack twice with them in the same turn BigFree> damnm that is cheating, IMO opd> yeah they probably won't do it again but they could BigFree> do you know much about irc? opd> not really BigFree> damn BigFree> I screwed something up BigFree> oh well opd> I know I didn't need a password to get into this room opd> what did you screw up BigFree> The cahnnels used to 'flash' when there was a new message....not anymore though * Octavian_X has joined #milops opd> hoooray BigFree> Maybe Oct knows opd> Hello Ot BigFree> The cahnnels used to 'flash' when there was a new message....not anymore though BigFree> how do I fix that Octavian_X> Hello * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_IDLE opd> I if thats the worst of your problems you're doing ok BigFree> screw the helos just tell me how to fix it! 5;7)1 Octavian_X> heh Octavian_X> right click the name of the channel on mIRC Octavian_X> select the 'Flashing' opiton. opd> Oct can you take over I gotta go to bed BigFree> hmm Octavian_X> Sure thing. opd> later * opd has quit IRC (Quit: ) * Octavian_X has quit IRC (Ping timeout) * Octavian_X has joined #milops * Arnelos_IDLE is now known as Arnelos * OctavianX has joined #milops * Octavian_X has quit IRC (Ping timeout) BigFree> Hey oct BigFree> did CFC recieve the save from us yet? OctavianX> Yes, we have. BigFree> cool OctavianX> as I just told MWIA in #apolyton. 1,8:P2,1 Arnelos> has that been posted at 1bc? * Octavian_X has joined #milops Arnelos> 4btw... is this room hidden? Arnelos> if not, it should be Arnelos> BF ? BigFree> it is Arnelos> good * OctavianX has quit IRC (Ping timeout) * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_AWAY * Octavian_X has quit IRC (Quit: who knows?) * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away * Arnelos_AWAY is now known as Arnelos * Togas has joined #MilOps * Octavian_X has joined #milops

	02-10-2003 07:49									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We CANNOT hold onto the save after 24 hours!

We need to follow the rules and stick to our agreement that we are to play the save within 24 hours.

I have copied BF's moves and sent the save to Vox.

In the future we MUST have our moves posted on time and we must conference with GS before the deadline runs out. It's rude and unfair to the other teams to hold onto the save longer than 24 hours.

--Togas

	02-10-2003 08:25									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We CANNOT hold onto the save after 24 hours! We need to follow the rules and stick to our agreement that we are to play the save within 24 hours. I have copied BF's moves and sent the save to Vox. In the future we MUST have our moves posted on time and we must conference with GS before the deadline runs out. It's rude and unfair to the other teams to hold onto the save longer than 24 hours. --Togas

We held the save for your benefit because we weren't entirely sure whether you'd approve the moves. Officially granting your deputies to make decisions of weight in your absence (and specifically naming in each case who wields that power) might help with this issue.

	02-10-2003 11:32									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm sorry about that Togas. I should have sent it off. You told me to do it, but I asked Aidun and Arnelos for advice instead and they suggested that I hold onto it till we could hear from you. Again, I apologize. I realize this makes you and our team look bad if we keep delaying the game like this.

I guess we all need to be on the same page and we need beter communication with GS about each turn. Since we lack the man hours to get all of this done, I am going to suggest that we give GS access to our save. They may not play it or move units or make any changes. Of course we trust them not to do this anywyas because their leader,nye, has the admin password anyways. It was always a point of honor from the begining. The only thing this does is reduces the burden on our team and theirs from having to chat for hours about what we see for each turn we get.

I am going to post a poll in the public forum about this topic.

	02-10-2003 15:19									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Giving GS access to our save is not neccssary because of YOUR lack of time. It is also not necessary even given Togas' lack of time.

Togas has it within his power to deputize someone, make that as an announcement in the forum when he does so, and give them the authority to simply make decision for him on the save if he is not present. The problem in this case was that Togas, to my and Aidun's knowlege, had not fully signed over his powers for making final decisions to BigFree.

Furthermore, if Togas is unable to expend the necessary time on the save, he can either appoint deputies that can (as we have done repeatedly throughout our history... hasn't been all that much of a problem before) or, in an extreme case, even step down. We have a lot of people on our team and while most of them are inactive, many of them are not.

While I realize we've had a recent incident where BigFree and Aidun attempted to overthrow Togas and this creates a political tension, there's also out-of-game practicality to consider. Aidun seems to have increased free time of late, as does Nuclear Winter. I also have increased free time of late, though I'm unsure how long this may last or how much my new responsibilities in the ISDG will sap my time working for the Foreign Affairs Ministry.

The point is that we are a TEAM with many members. We should utilize as many of those members as possible for their time and talents rather than putting everything on the shoulders of people who are already overburdened in other Democracy Games.

What I think would help most is perhaps a prioritized list from Togas, like we used to have back in the bad old Despotism days, of who may play the save in what order and what level of authority they have to conduct discussions with Gathering Storm and what level of authority they have to simply make decisions as though they possessed all of the powers and responsibilities of Togas' office.

In effect, we need a Vice President and any other further deputies below a Vice President as may be necessary when the President is unavailable.

That's my two (insert your lowest denomination of currency here).

There is no NEED to share our save file with GS.

	03-10-2003 01:12									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

To clear up the confusion:

I was prepared to play the save on Tuesday night, but was asked to wait for Military orders from Nuc. So I did. I postponed playing the save until the 23rd hour, which was Wednesday during my lunch break.

While playing the save on Weds I still did not have any military orders but at least I had BigFree, Arnelos, and History present. We discussed several options for our mountain stack and just before implimenting one of them Asleepatthewheel came online and a chat began with him.

My lunch break was over. I had to get back to work so I instructed BigFree to play the turn after consulting with GS and the guys in chat.

I'm not sure why BigFree wanted to ask me about what orders he performed. He posted what the consensus was, I agreed, and yet there was some uncertainty?

I do appreciate that he wanted to check with me, but ultimately it wasn't needed. In the future, if I delegate to someone to play the turn, I trust that the person selected will do a find job. No need to ask me afterwards.

We don't have an active Lord Chamberlain. We also don't seem to have any active military plans being posted. We ALSO don't have anyone managing the workers either. If anyone is willing to step up and take any of these responsibilities and fullfill them, please say so.

--Togas