27-09-2003 20:31									#1
	Doctrine : Initiative, Maritime Control Center etc... Increase the size of your Attachments

IIRC no less than four people - GooglieGod, Phenix, DeathByTheSword and Corellion - have already hinted at the idea of switching research to Doc:Ini and after that building the MCC. It however never came out of the stage of informal comments. Therefore I'd like to start this official discussion thread.

To clarify things, were you thinking of:
1) switching research to Doc:Ini:
a) no matter what happens, deal or no deal with PEACE
b) only if they didn't give us DocFlex this turn
c) something else

2) building the MCC:
a) no matter what happens
b) only when it appears that we won't get the Virtual World. Problem with this option is that, if we get DocFlex next turn MY 2138, we have to choose a new tech immediately in MY 2139, so we only have one turn left before we have to make a choice what policy to follow.
c) somethig else

To present the whole picture regarding secret projects, we could probably also switch research to Doc:Loy and hope to build the Command Nexus before the Hive, or wait for PEACE to research Adaptive Economics and then hopefully trade (or steal) the tech. Unfortunately we hardly have any information at all to tell us what would be the best option. We're almost completely in the dark.

	27-09-2003 22:01									#2
	Support Apolyton

PEACE is trying to keep us in the dark with regards to everyone else. They want us isolated, so that we have to deal with them (and so that they control the seas, keeping us with no hope of attacking them). The only reason they are willing to give us Doc:Flex now is because we're going to get it anyway. If we really want to break our reliance upon PEACE, we need a quick way to explore, and a credible naval threat to protect us and to help us wage war if necessary. What's faster at this tech level than cruisers with the MCC? With the free Naval Yards, our units are just that much better in combat.

The only snag is that we promised PEACE we'd switch to HEC. I'd say that we should keep our promises, but the situation with the SP demands more immediate action. In addition, it seems that relations with PEACE have degraded far too much. I am of the opinion that they no longer consider us an ally (not that they ever did), and are just stringing us along for the commerce and to delay us longer, so we don't become a credible threat anytime soon. So let's switch and finish Doc:Init, and then do HEC afterwards (or better yet, trade for it with our new cruisers). We'll give it to them (as promised) and be rid of our debt to them.

The course of action will, of course, seriously annoy PEACE. Likely consequences include termination of the pact, as well as seriously damaging future relations. (OOC: if they're roleplaying, they'll have a grudge for the rest of the game, and we can pretty much count out the possibility of anything beyond grudging trades of obvious mutual benefit). Thought I doubt this alone is enough, they may even declare vendetta. In any case, it can't be a bad idea to build a sizable (but hopefully not threatening to PEACE) navy to defend us and explore the planet.

So, my answers are 1.a), and 2.a).

This is all subject to change given different circumstances, of course.

	28-09-2003 01:54									#3
	Got spare money?

Okay, as long as I don't have to be the one explaining it to them...

I would like to hear some other opinions though.

	28-09-2003 02:30									#4
	Support Apolyton

Er, yeah...

Let's delay the turn until our NEW and improved maybe External Affairs Function takes over. He can explain it to them!

	28-09-2003 02:39									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Corellion, in short, you've got a very bad image of Peace... and maybe you're right
But i'm not sure at all.
Maybe they are of good will, and they still want to go for a 'permapact'...

Their slow reacting and endless negotiating we've experienced for the entire game may well just be because they make slow decisions and they talk about every detail over and over again in their own faction.
Or like you said, they want to keep us in the dark with all means possible and they're just using us

However, I don't know which of the 2 possibilities it is. Do you?? That's our big problem, like Maniac indeed states: We're almost completely in the dark.

IMHO if Peace does trade us Doc:Flex next turn then we can't afford to break our promise. The diplomatic consequenses would be too grave. But if they only attempt to stall a little bit, by all means buy from the AI.
I would prefer the VW over the MCC though, so my votes are 1b and 2b

	28-09-2003 03:56									#6
	Re: Doctrine : Initiative, Maritime Control Center etc... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Maniac b) only when it appears that we won't get the Virtual World. Problem with this option is that, if we get DocFlex next turn MY 2138, we have to choose a new tech immediately in MY 2139, so we only have one turn left before we have to make a choice what policy to follow. To present the whole picture regarding secret projects, we could probably also switch research to Doc:Loy and hope to build the Command Nexus before the Hive, or wait for PEACE to research Adaptive Economics and then hopefully trade (or steal) the tech. Unfortunately we hardly have any information at all to tell us what would be the best option. We're almost completely in the dark.

The Hive has already completed the Virtual World (as you'll see when this current turn reaches you)

G.

	28-09-2003 04:29									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

* Maniac shakes his head.
How is that possible? I haven't played many PBEM games, but I have never seen anyone build three SPs in 37 years.

Anyway, in that case I'm all for the MCC option...

	28-09-2003 05:38									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Running Planned and Wealth (+3 Industry) it takes only six crawlers to instabuild a 200 cost SP like the HGP or CN and eight crawlers plus 50 ec's for a 300 one such as the VW or the PTS

And these are unimproved crawlers

G.

	28-09-2003 07:00									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I didn't realise that they had had crawlers for that long! We need to continue the crawler rush! More crawlers!

Sounds of the thousands of factories across CyCon territory upping their productive capacity

I smell the work of Kody here.

	28-09-2003 14:34									#10
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about how to break the news to PEACE about not switching to HEC....give the fault to me...i am the second function right now...just say i picked the wrong tech... i dont mind...i btw i am the new external if it is correct...so i will be talking to them from then

	28-09-2003 16:30									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Running Planned and Wealth (+3 Industry) it takes only six crawlers to instabuild a 200 cost SP like the HGP or CN and eight crawlers plus 50 ec's for a 300 one such as the VW or the PTS

Yeah but even then. I guess they have let each base produce crawlers ad nauseam for the last ten years or so.

quote: We need to continue the crawler rush! More crawlers!

But what will you let those crawlers harvest? We hardly have unused forests! IMHO we first need to build a few more formers.

quote: give the fault to me...i am the second function right now...just say i picked the wrong tech...

Sounds good. You will have to play the next turn then to make it believable.

	28-09-2003 23:00									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

All right, let's go for the MCC

	29-09-2003 00:10									#13
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Wonderful! Now we just have to explain why DBTS played the turn instead of Drogue, now that he's back.

	29-09-2003 00:32									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well if Drogue is back, it's much simplier: He just wasn't aware of the deal that we would switch research to HEC, and you forgot to include it in your orderset as you thought everyone knew it.

	29-09-2003 04:11									#15
	Remove this text

Can someone fill me in on the latest with PEACE? AFAIK we have agreed to give them HEC, instead of Eth Calc for the last trade, and are offering 90ec for Doc Flex? IMHO, if we can get Doc Flex for Ec do it, but don't offer HEC. I think this relationship has gone on too long, and giving them a decent military tech isn't a good move. Simply offer Eth Calc and do the doc flex deal, or preferably do the doc flex deal, and then use the "deals off when vendetta" that exists playing the AI, that loans stop being paid of if vendetta is declared. Then we are a tech up, and can beat the **** out of them. We agreed on Eth Calc, not on HEC, first. If you want to stay friends, but not trade, you could explain that with me coming back I vetoed it (they don't know I cannot do that ) Or just poll it? I think it would be a huge mistake, and it would be much more fun to start a vendetta, especially with all our pent up anger against PEACE. Also with techsteal, it would be beneficial. We need HEC, Doc Flex and Non Math as a minimum, but if we can get the MCC and Doc: Init we could do much better However if we start those PEACE will almost certainly finish the Pact first, since it wasn't what they wanted/expected or we promised. Also it will look hostile. We want to be nice until we surprise them

The big question. Do we want to remain friends with PEACE? Simply for the sake of enjoyment, I would go no. What do others think?

	29-09-2003 04:47									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Can someone fill me in on the latest with PEACE?

We were nearing a deal with PEACE regarding DocFlex. As you state, it involved we giving PEACE 90 credits (though the tech-for-tech option was also still possible). An aside promise I made was to switch to HEC on their request.

However after I played our latest turn, PEACE suddenly stopped the negotiations. I asked them what was going on, why they had so quicky played their turn, whether they had offered us DocFlex or not, but I only received back a short from Flubber saying he'll ask the operation folks what has happened. I still got no further news... Who knows, perhaps they were only negotiating with us to prevent us from buying DocFlex from the AI this turn, and their only intention was to stall our progress???

Because of this, and because Googlie told us the Hive has completed the Virtual World this turn - leaving us without a SP to build - we have decided to switch research to Doc:Ini after we get DocFlex and try to build the Maritime Control Center.


Btw, an annoying thought, but what if we can't choose Doc:Ini as our next research project...

	29-09-2003 06:05									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hmm... if we can't then let's go for EthCalc, get rid of that debt. After that, we switch to either HEC or NM immediately.

	29-09-2003 06:25									#18
	Put an end to popups!

I agree with Corellion completely.

Last edited by Drogue on 29-09-2003 at 06:36

	29-09-2003 15:42									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

ok please tell me when to play the turn and we are going to doc: ini right? and for this ones could you all please send your orders to me by PM?

	29-09-2003 18:39									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Last edited by Googlie on 15-10-2003 at 22:29

	29-09-2003 19:38									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Please wait a bit with playing. I'd like to have a quick last view on the turn to see if anything unexpected has happened. I should be able to do that in a few hours. (Now I'm not at home.)

Anyway, personally I would still prefer to trade with the Angels. Since there's a believer chopper over our territory, I assume Miriam is just to the right to us, while the Angels are probably away from us but in the neighbourhood of PEACE. I'd prefer to trade with Roze, thus helping to create a strong Angel faction annoying PEACE instead of a strong Believer faction annoying us.

Googlie, if we want, we can switch research this turn already (after we bought DocFlex). It can be done somewhere in the left menu. But of course, that would tell PEACE one turn earlier what we're up to...

Oh yeah, since PEACE just seemed to have tricked us in delaying the sell of DocFlex, I'm more leaning towards Drogue's idea of a military build-up. Therefore, if we couldn't choose Doc:Ini now, I would vote to switch research to NonlMath (but of course refuse to give that tech to PEACE when we have it).

	29-09-2003 21:14									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Don't forget to try and trade some other techs (sell some of ours) once you have contacted the AI.

We'll need the cash/tech advantage if we're going offensive on the Pirates...

	29-09-2003 21:32									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

25 credits per tech? (usual price they offer) Is that really worth it, when you make the AI stronger by doing so?

Btw, Googlie, this is important to know when to decide what to do, did you edit the AI diplomacy in anyway, for example "fix current state as permanent"?

	29-09-2003 22:51									#24
	Remove this text

maniac cant you play the turn and give the sav. to me to post...?

	29-09-2003 22:55									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sure. Though I'll wait until tomorrow with playing. I first want to know everyone's opinion on the latest PM from Hercules I got. It's a pity we'll have to stall the game again, but it's not our fault.

Edit: The current opinion is two (DBTS and me) against one (Phenix) to buy from the AI anyway. Unless someone else posts saying to trade with PEACE, I'll play the turn in some four hours (using the EAF orders in the Orders thread and my proposals in the IAF thread) and send it to DBTS.

Last edited by Maniac on 29-09-2003 at 23:14

	30-09-2003 00:44									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Official Prime Function's view: Do anything that's fun. In other works, lets f**k the Pirates

	30-09-2003 02:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac 25 credits per tech? (usual price they offer) Is that really worth it, when you make the AI stronger by doing so?

But of course I have a vested interest in my beloved Angels and their Believers being as strong as possible .....

quote: Btw, Googlie, this is important to know when to decide what to do, did you edit the AI diplomacy in anyway, for example "fix current state as permanent"?

Of course!! Each one of you has a friendly AI and an unfriendly AI, but just to confuse things the "friendly" one may betray you while the "unfriendly" one might even want to talk

Nothing is permanent (as affects AI-Human relations anyway) so "being nice" and your SE choices may turn a suspicious AI into a magnanimous one

G.

	30-09-2003 02:36									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

In case you couldn't gather from my other post, no, no trade.

The external affair's functions job just got a lot harder. Whoever it is (in all likelyhood DBTS) now has to continue dealing with PEACE and not make anything seem suspicious.

	01-10-2003 06:58									#29
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For the record, the Free Drones completed the Merchant Exchange this turn (2139)

G.

	01-10-2003 16:09									#30
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oh i can be nice....i can be so nice that they will be knocking on our front door with the keys to there capital soon....or we will be knocking on there front door with impact foils and cruisers and they will think it was for security reasons