28-09-2003 09:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi As it was, Pope Pius XII did a good enough job to win the thanks of most Jewish leaders immediatly after WWII.

Of course, that was before they realized what really happened in some cases. The Church is still trying to apologize for some of their actions and inactions.

	28-09-2003 10:50									#32
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Dr. S:

PRUSSIAN CATHOLICS:

56% of the total population would be Catholic of a Prussia including Silesia, if we went by the numbers today.

Given the time that has passed, neither one of us is right.

However, if you exclude Silesia, then you would get an overwhelmingly Protestant population.

So it would be more accurate to call Silesia a Catholic area, and Prussia as a Protestant area.

*****************************************

GERMANY

Diocese of Gorlitz:

1980 70,000 1,000,000 7.0%
1990 60,000 930,000 6.5%
1999 49,200 920,000 5.3%
2000 49,200 920,000 5.3%
2001 48,500 920,000 5.3%
2002 48,500 910,000 5.3%


Diocese of Dresden-Meissen

1950 592,531 6,042,219 9.8%
1970 351,670 5,178,526 6.8%
1980 274,500 5,217,000 5.3%
1990 248,000 4,900,000 5.1%
1999 181,113 4,385,000 4.1%
2000 181,048 4,375,000 4.1%
2001 179,360 4,359,000 4.1%
2002 179,715 4,337,000 4.1%


**************************************

POLAND


Wroclaw (Breslau)

1958 4,000,000 5,300,000 75.5%
1980 2,654,000 2,953,000 89.9%
1990 3,025,900 3,117,470 97.1%
1999 1,470,100 1,580,039 93.0%
2000 1,470,100 1,580,039 93.0%
2001 1,470,100 1,580,039 93.0%
2002 1,470,100 1,580,000 93.0%


Gdansk (Danzig)


1950 281,000 290,000 96.9%
1970 500,000 524,000 95.4%
1980 599,000 615,000 97.4%
1990 614,000 629,000 97.6%

1999 975,452 1,014,950 96.1%
2000 917,105 976,778 93.9%
2001 926,761 992,603 93.4%
2002 944,158 993,275 95.1%


Archdiocese of Szczecin-Kamien


1980 927,000 990,000 93.6%
1990 1,000,000 1,073,400 93.2%
1999 1,000,000 1,079,200 92.7%
2000 1,000,000 1,078,800 92.7%
2001 1,000,000 1,080,514 92.5%
2002 1,000,000 1,074,593 93.1%


Diocese of Zielona Góra-Gorzów

1980 1,053,000 1,088,000 96.8%
1990 1,166,000 1,198,000 97.3%
1999 941,000 1,060,000 88.8%
2000 942,000 1,063,000 88.6%
2001 992,797 1,060,297 93.6%
2002 987,715 1,057,714 93.4%


Diocese of Legnica

1999 1,111,685 1,141,308 97.4%
2000 1,111,143 1,141,125 97.4%
2001 1,111,123 1,140,021 97.5%
2002 1,084,000 1,120,000 96.8%


Diocese of Koszalin-Kolobrzeg

1980 929,000 983,000 94.5%
1990 967,200 1,019,700 94.9%
1999 850,000 930,000 91.4%
2000 849,500 928,000 91.5%
2001 850,000 935,000 90.9%
2002 850,000 933,000 91.1%


Diocese of Opole

1980 1,600,000 1,660,000 96.4%
1990 1,820,000 1,920,000 94.8%
1999 870,350 910,000 95.6%
2000 870,400 910,000 95.6%
2001 870,400 910,000 95.6%
2002 870,400 910,000 95.6%


Diocese of Gliwice

1999 691,000 765,000 90.3%
2000 694,000 765,000 90.7%
2001 690,950 762,050 90.7%
2002 690,000 761,900 90.6%

Diocese of Elblag

1999 484,077 492,058 98.4%
2000 484,000 492,050 98.4%
2001 483,630 491,700 98.4%
2002 474,500 489,200 97.0%


c) Maybe 3000 for a population of 500,000 thousand in Kaliningrad/ Konigsberg.

	28-09-2003 13:55									#33
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quote: Clearly, Hitler did take control of the German economy.

Not as much as a lot of people think, one of the things that hurt Germany is that until quite late there was a lot later than the allies, the German state didn't really take control of the economy in order to make it into a war machine. Also the Germans didn't push to have women enter to workforce to replace men off fighting until much later than the same thing happened in the allied countries which also hurt a good bit.

Also keep in mind that Hitler represented the right wing of the National Socialists and had the left wing of the National Socialists purged in the Night of the Long Knives (which was never really that strong, the National Socialists failed miserably in early campaigns to recruit industrial workers and was always weak among traditional leftist constituencies). Hell, you could make a case that Italian Fascism was more leftist than National Socialism, what with their flirting with quasi-leftist economic Corporatism.

But the best evidence that the Nazis weren't leftist is that when they started to do well in the polls the combined Social Democratic/Communist stayed about steady while the moderate/conservative parties lost votes at about the same rate that the Nazis picked them up. Obviously then, the people who supported the Nazis were not the sort of people who would ever consider voting for a traditional leftist party but instead voted for moderate/conversative parties (or didn't vote).

	28-09-2003 19:08									#34
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Boshko is right. Matches what I know from my grandfather.

	28-09-2003 19:53									#35
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and this is supposed to make me feel what in regards to mussolini? not hate his guts?

	29-09-2003 00:32									#36
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Bosko, et al., I think a large portion of the "right" was attracted to the NAZI party due to Hitler's desire to restore German prestige and undo Versailles. The traditional socialists and communists are "internationalists" and do not tap into cultural pride.

Regardless, Hitler still wanted to dictate who did what in the German economy. He also did a lot of things for the common man, such as creating the Volkswagen and building resorts for the less wealthy. He was socialist, but a "national" socialist.

So on the left-right spectrum, economically he was on the left. But to the extent that nationism is considered to be "right," he was an extreme rightist.

	29-09-2003 01:36									#37
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to sum up Nazi politics, economicly they were more in line with Social Democrats imo

	29-09-2003 01:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bosko, et al., I think a large portion of the "right" was attracted to the NAZI party due to Hitler's desire to restore German prestige and undo Versailles. The traditional socialists and communists are "internationalists" and do not tap into cultural pride. Regardless, Hitler still wanted to dictate who did what in the German economy. He also did a lot of things for the common man, such as creating the Volkswagen and building resorts for the less wealthy. He was socialist, but a "national" socialist. So on the left-right spectrum, economically he was on the left. But to the extent that nationism is considered to be "right," he was an extreme rightist.

And the first groups to go into the concentration camps were the Communists, Socialists, and Trade Unionists. There were no trade unions in Nazi Germany, cause they create "class warfare", which interefered with the single nation. So NO, the Nazi's were not "leftist" in any way. Economic policy is NOT the sole criteria of left or right: Pat Buchanan in the US is clearly right, but he is pro-union somewhat and a trade protectionist.

Note as well that such "leftists" as Henry Ford, the British Aristocracy, and Germany's industrialists all supported Hitler's rise. Yup,. sounds like a real enemy of the upper crusts and industry there..... NOT.

	29-09-2003 01:57									#39
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GePap, and now you are going to tell me that communism is not leftist because there are no "independent" trade unions in communist countries. The lack of trade unions merely is indicative of a totalitarian society - which is very typical of the left.

	29-09-2003 02:01									#40
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I have no idea why Ford and the British aristocracy would support a man who was going to take Germany to war to undo Versailles. Of course, Hitler was an arryan racist. Perhaps Ford and the Brit aristocracy like Hitler for this reason.

	29-09-2003 02:24									#41
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Which industry did Hitler nationalize? Which sector? None of them/. IG Farben, Krupps, Daimler Benz, all of these companies remained independent, and heck, didn;t even have to deal with unions! IN somewhere like the SU, they might not allow independent unions, but all sectors are also state owned: in theory, there is no need for unions as the workers regime own the means of production. In Germany the state did NOT nationalize indsutry nor business.

An men like Ford, Germany's industrialists (note how you left them out, in theory thse who stood the most to lose from some "leftist coming to power) and the British aristocracy all backed Hitler as a man who would stem the tide of Red Bolshevism in it's tracts.

Ned, maybe you should attempt some level of understanding of the left-it would make your trolls and endless rants more powerfull, if you could show even a minimal understanding.

	29-09-2003 03:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The lack of trade unions merely is indicative of a totalitarian society - which is very typical of the left.

THAT IS A LIE! Take that back NOW! I am not totalitarian! Quit confusing true Communism with Stalinism.

The "socialist" part in "National Socialism" is a big fat lie as far as I'm concerned. Nazi Germany was a corporate haven because they had slave labor and no unions.

	29-09-2003 04:03									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The differences were that German socialism included a lot of German racism, er, nationalism.

You are clearly one of those people who don't understand the concept that naming yourself something doesn't mean you are something. Nazism IS a form of fasism, a nasty, viscious, brutal form a fascism, with a differnt name because it was a different country. But they called themselves fascists and the rest of the world called them fascists.

Big business massively supported the Nazis. Has big business ever supported a socialist group in the history of socialism? Nazis were employed to break strikes. What communists were ever employed to break strikes? The Nazis gave fat state contracts to big business. Is this the work of a group that is opposed to private porperty? The Nazis were the servents of the capitalists, not their opponents.

	29-09-2003 04:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have no idea why Ford and the British aristocracy would support a man who was going to take Germany to war to undo Versailles.

Because Htiler was the enemy of the Bolsheviks and was going to save private property from the communists. Everyone knew that at the time. Why are you so clueless today, troll?

	29-09-2003 04:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think . . .

Actually you don't. Like a typical Republican, when your theory doesn't fit the facts, you throw out the facts, rather than the theory.

	29-09-2003 04:09									#46
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Ned has been brainwashed by capitalist propaganda like all republicans, isn't it obvious, Che?

	29-09-2003 04:33									#47
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I agree that the NAZI's did not take ownership of industry. But I thought this was a back-room deal between Hitler and the industrialists which effectively transformed the NAZI's. However, they did "control" industry to the extent they told them what they could or could not work on. To the extent that control without ownership is fascism, so be it. I am not going to argue that point. However a hallmark of leftist politics in the US is state control over business through regulation. Hitler's Germany went even beyond that, didn't they.

As to the support of Ford and the Brit aristocracy for Hitler because of his anti-communism, well I support that as well. The but I would never support Nazism for a large number of other reasons. There has to be something more than simple shared anti-communism. But if that is all there is, then there was nothing at all objectional about Ford and the Brit aristocracy in its appreciation of Hitler.

Also to suggest that the left is not about denying people economic freedom - well, I think the left lives in state of self-delusion. Every example of a communist government has denied economic freedom to its people, including the right to set their own wages through negotiation.

	29-09-2003 04:42									#48
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Germany, Sweden, norway, France are all examples of places were industry is highly regulated, were economic theory is certainly to the left of the US, and yet workers do have the right to negotiate wages. Your mistake number one Ned is that you equate left to Marxist-Leninist or Maoist dictatorships. That is as stupid as saying all right-wing regimes are genocidal maniacs.

quote: But if that is all there is, then there was nothing at all objectional about Ford and the Brit aristocracy in its appreciation of Hitler.

This is trully sad. So its fine to support a genocidal maniac cause he happens to be anti-communist? Oh, how moral you are.

But you know Ned, I won;t bother. Your bias is so deep and so ingrained as to be impossible to budge with anything. I won;t waste energy on it: I will only correct you when you are wrong.

	29-09-2003 04:49									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Dr. S: There are other protestant groups. What were the percentage Catholics back in 1939 in your encylopedia britannica?

Like I said, about 55%. In the 16th century Calvinist, anabaptist groups sprang up in western Germany, Bohemia, Poland and Thuringia. At the end of the Thirty Years war it was agreed that they had no place in central Europe and they were virtually eradicated except for rag-tag bands that happened to escape to England and or the Americas. By the beginning of the 20th century there were very few non-Lutheran protestants in Germany.
Something to consider is that since Hitler was nominally a Catholic, even though we know he loathed Catholicism almost as much as he loathed Judaism, many Germans may have declared themselves Catholics in the hopes of ingratiating themselves to the powers that be.

quote: According to Catholic Heirarchy listing of Countries Currently, you have 26.694 million Catholics out of a population of 80.77 million in Germany or 33%.

Yes, and there are about 33 million Protestants in Germany today. About 30% claim no religion. In Germany in 1938 I don't think that the "no religion" option was allowed, because it implied that you were a communist.

quote: The historical records I can find go back to 1950, so I wil have a look and see what they say.

They won't do you any good because millions of people were displaced at the war's end.

	29-09-2003 04:50									#50
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I'm sorry, GePap, but the homicidal maniac came after WWII was over and we discovered what he had done. You have to look at Hitler from the days prior to WWII to form a judgment about Ford and the Brit aristocracy.

The problem I would have had at that time was the end to democracy in Germany. I am surprised that Ford and the Brit aristocracy would have supported the Nazi movement and an end to democracy even if they were anti-communist.

Did you know that Joe Kennedy was pro-Nazi? Why?

	29-09-2003 04:54									#51
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quote: I am surprised that Ford and the Brit aristocracy would have supported the Nazi movement and an end to democracy even if they were anti-communist.

And exactly why is this? You can do business with a pro-business authocracy. You can;t make money with them damn commies. Seems simple enough.

Maybe the rampant anti-Semitism of HItler also appealed to them. Hitler was more than clear about his intentions for them as of the citizenship laws of 1935, even if one believed the nazi line that the 1934 boycotts were "spontanous" and not party-driven.

	29-09-2003 04:57									#52
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Dr. S.

55% seems a bit high. I think not having a non-religious option would account for the high figure.

I was suprised to see the number of Catholics equalling the Lutherans at around 33 percent for both today.

As for the Statistics, it's a shot in the dark, but better than nothing.

quote: In the 16th century Calvinist, anabaptist groups sprang up in western Germany, Bohemia, Poland and Thuringia. At the end of the Thirty Years war it was agreed that they had no place in central Europe and they were virtually eradicated except for rag-tag bands that happened to escape to England and or the Americas.

Umm, those rag-tag bands include the Mennonites, and the Baptists. I think they've grown somewhat since then.

What about the Reformed church? There are still a substantial number of those in Germany.

	29-09-2003 05:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: I am surprised that Ford and the Brit aristocracy would have supported the Nazi movement and an end to democracy even if they were anti-communist. And exactly why is this? You can do business with a pro-business authocracy. You can;t make money with them damn commies. Seems simple enough. Maybe the rampant anti-Semitism of HItler also appealed to them. Hitler was more than clear about his intentions for them as of the citizenship laws of 1935, even if one believed the nazi line that the 1934 boycotts were "spontanous" and not party-driven.

That's what I think too. They agreed both with Hitler's anti-communism and with Hitler's anti-Semitism. I think they were willing to "excuse" his lack of democracy.

Strange times, those.

	29-09-2003 05:09									#54
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What aristocrat or corporate CEO cares a whit about democracy? Corporations are dictatorships and aristocrats feel that they have a devine right to rule.

Just try and think, Ned. It may be scary, but it's actually quite wonderful.

	29-09-2003 05:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What aristocrat or corporate CEO cares a whit about democracy? Corporations are dictatorships and aristocrats feel that they have a devine right to rule. Just try and think, Ned. It may be scary, but it's actually quite wonderful.

As I have often said, Che, communists live in a fog of lies and are unable to distinguish between the truth and falsehood even though some of them seem rational - such a you do at times.

Corporate CEO's care about making money. If they can do deals with Hitler that make them a lot of money - who cares about whether Hitler is a democrat or not. But the very same thing is true of communist dictators. Look at all the CEO's that want to keep good relations with China. They simply want to make money and do not care about the relative lack of freedom of the Chinese people.

As to the Brit aristocracy, I would not be surprised if they liked everything about Hitler, including his suppression of German democracy.

But to come out publicly and support Hitler to the people of America and Britain? That is what Joe Kennedy did. Why? I hardly think it had anything to do with Hitler's lack of democracy. I think it was because of his anti-communism and anti-Semitism.

PS, try to tone down the personal attacks.

	29-09-2003 05:53									#56
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And oh, don't you think it kind of a amuzing that Jack Kennedy got elected president even though his father was pro-NAZI and that we are about to elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, a member of the Kennedy clan by marriage, as governor of California even though his father was a NAZI? The closeness of NAZI-ism to the Kennedies is just a coincidence, right?

	29-09-2003 06:46									#57
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Ned, go sit in time-out untill you get out of YOUR delusions, were are not the delusional ones.

	29-09-2003 07:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And oh, don't you think it kind of a amuzing that Jack Kennedy got elected president even though his father was pro-NAZI and that we are about to elect Arnold Schwarzenegger, a member of the Kennedy clan by marriage, as governor of California even though his father was a NAZI? The closeness of NAZI-ism to the Kennedies is just a coincidence, right?

The Bush family was close to the Nazis too. Actually, Joe's support of Hitler cost him his influence with the Roosevelts and meant he'd never get to be President, something which he very much wanted. As for uyour next governor, Arnie, when he toasted Waldheim after the revelations about his Nazi past came out, he horrified the Kennedys.

Lindberg also supported the Nazis.

BTW, if corporations are so willing to get in bed with countries that call themselves Communist, it might tell you something about the true nature of their regimes. Or do you think the U.S. flip-flops back and forth between a democracy and a republic depending on which party is in charge?

	29-09-2003 09:01									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about the Reformed church? There are still a substantial number of those in Germany.

I shudder to think of what being a reformed Nazi meant in 1939.

	29-09-2003 16:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Dr.S: A sample from the region of Prussia or German Prussia. Prussia's a real pain because of the parts in Poland, Germany and Russia all being behind the Iron Curtain. Let's take a look at the Polish figures, and then onto Koenigsburg/ Kaliningrad.

That would make no sense (unless You mean that We'd have to find the numbers from before 1945. In Krolewiec/Kaliningrad, there are none of former citizens. Most of Poles that lived in Prussia, Prussian Silesia and Pomerania have emigrated as well and are today a minority. And when it comes to your figures, remember that most of Silesian catholics were Poles, as well as part of catholics of Warmia, part of (main) Prussia. and catholics in Saxony and Brandenburg (part that earlier, before napolean wars was Saxon) were Luzyczans. Not German. There were also protestant Poles in Masures, so it makes it even more complicated.