27-09-2003 21:13									#1
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Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
(Filed: 27/09/2003)


The Italian dictator Benito Mussolini asked the Pope to excommunicate Adolf Hitler days before the German leader went to Rome to seal the Axis in 1938, according to a newly discovered Vatican document.

The only other way of stopping Hitler was to wage war, an option that was "not wanted", Mussolini is reported as saying.

The details of Mussolini's secret request were found in the minutes of a papal audience between Pius XI and a Jesuit priest who acted as a go-between with the Vatican and the Italian leader.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...7/ixportal.html


Imagine what would have happened if Hitler had tried to get the Tirol back from Italy rather than Sudetenland;- Mussolini would not have backed down, and World War 2 starts in 1938 with Germany having no allies

	27-09-2003 21:29									#2
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As if people could care a **** about what the Pope thinks

	27-09-2003 21:59									#3
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I'm pretty sure the billion catholics care

	27-09-2003 23:00									#4
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Didn't the Church cut a deal with Hitler in this same timeframe? I think Hitler was well aware that he at least needed the cooperation of the Church to stay popular in Germany.

If this story is true, it appears that Italy's cooperation with Germany was somewhat under duress. This is quite different from what historians have typically protrayed the arrangement.

BTW, I have always wondered why Italian fascism and German national socialism would be "equated." In a sense, the one was a "rightest" movement and the other "leftist," to the extent socialism is leftist.

	27-09-2003 23:25									#5
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Hitler could have just become a protestant like most of the rest of the German population.

	27-09-2003 23:55									#6
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At the beginning Mussolini didn't like Hitler at all. The first time Hitler tried to annex Austria it was Mussolini who stopped him. because the Italian dictator didn't want to have Germany as a neighbor.

IIRC Austria was annexed in 1938, so maybe that request was more a reaction of Mussolini to the Austrian anschluss.

However after 1935 (War of Ethiopia) Mussolini was isolated in Europe, so even though he did not like Hitler much he had to play good with him. And I think that by 1938 Italy and Germany were very near, and that's probably what allowed Hitler to annex Austria... because he knew that: he was stronger than Mussolini, and that Mussolini needed him.

It's strange that the document is dated 1938 rather than an earlier data though... if it was say... 1934 than it wouldn't be so strange.

However in 1939 Mussolini had already became one of Hitler lackeys and he would have done whatever it needed to please him... so the anger of Mussolini against Hitler did not last much and was quickly replaced with a great admiration and respect.... unfortunatly I'd dare say.

Saluti

	28-09-2003 00:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine At the beginning Mussolini didn't like Hitler at all. The first time Hitler tried to annex Austria it was Mussolini who stopped him. because the Italian dictator didn't want to have Germany as a neighbor. IIRC Austria was annexed in 1938, so maybe that request was more a reaction of Mussolini to the Austrian anschluss. However after 1935 (War of Ethiopia) Mussolini was isolated in Europe, so even though he did not like Hitler much he had to play good with him. And I think that by 1938 Italy and Germany were very near, and that's probably what allowed Hitler to annex Austria... because he knew that: he was stronger than Mussolini, and that Mussolini needed him. It's strange that the document is dated 1938 rather than an earlier data though... if it was say... 1934 than it wouldn't be so strange. However in 1939 Mussolini had already became one of Hitler lackeys and he would have done whatever it needed to please him... so the anger of Mussolini against Hitler did not last much and was quickly replaced with a great admiration and respect.... unfortunatly I'd dare say. Saluti

Your note does suggest that Italy was given a choice - be an "ally" or suffer the same fate as Austria. Mussolini clearly was a reluctant ally. I wonder if his "admiration" of Hitler was feigned.

(Perhaps this could also explain Italian soldiers poor performance in aid of their German ally. Their hearts were really not in it.)

	28-09-2003 00:17									#8
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They definitely weren't after the invasion of Poland, a fellow Catholic country. It made Mussolini very uneasy about siding with Hitler, and it's why Italy didn't contribute to the Polish campaign.

	28-09-2003 00:52									#9
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Actually Mussolini didn't want to enter the war, until Hitler defeated France, mostly because he thought that the Germans could have had a quick victory and he could get some of the spoils of the war.

It is strange but prior to Ethiopia Mussolini actually wanted to create with France and England an anti-Hitler alliance.

But after Ethiopia both the French and the English pushed sanctions against Italy and Mussolini had to embrace Hitler as his only ally in Europe.

Nonetheless I would blame the Italian poor performance on our bad equipment and poor organization, as our army was outdated and air force was almost nonexistant (only the Navy was good, and that's why the Allies asked for it to be given to them when Italy signed the armistice ) than in a possible reluctancy of the Italians to help the Germans.

Probably what you say could be true for some soldiers... but I don't think it could be considered as the major cause.

Saluti

	28-09-2003 01:00									#10
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So, the Brits and the French are primarily responsble for forcing an ally from WWI into Hitler's axis. How stupid of them.

Also imagine the history books. Mussulini would be protrayed as a "hero" rather than a villain.

England almost did the same thing when the USSR invaded Finland and then Poland. But cooler heads prevailed. England did not need to drive the whole of Europe into Hitler's alliances.

	28-09-2003 01:05									#11
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This does cast a new light on Italy, thanks.

quote: Originally posted by Ned BTW, I have always wondered why Italian fascism and German national socialism would be "equated." In a sense, the one was a "rightest" movement and the other "leftist," to the extent socialism is leftist.

Hitler called himself a "National Socialist", but remember, he was not known for his honesty. One of the groups he considered his main enemies were "the Bolshevics" . I don't see much Communism in Nazism, except that both are authoritian, as is fascism.

	28-09-2003 01:06									#12
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quote: As if people could care a **** about what the Pope thinks

There are a great deal many Catholics in Germany. The problem with the request in 1938, is that it would really be too late. All this could do is dishearten many of the faithful Catholics, particularly in Bavaria and in Austria from co-operating with Hitler.

That's an interesting point you make about Poland and Italy, that Italy did not really want to side with Hitler after he dismembered Poland, a fellow Catholic country.

	28-09-2003 01:07									#13
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quote: Hitler could have just become a protestant like most of the rest of the German population.

Austria, Bavaria, most of southern Germany.......

Hitler being excommunicated would have probably led to his downfall, or atleast, would have weakend his public support detramentaly



edit: got there before me Ben Kenobi

	28-09-2003 01:11									#14
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quote: So, the Brits and the French are primarily responsble for forcing an ally from WWI into Hitler's axis. How stupid of them.

To some extent... yes

But then again.. Mussolini knew that the Brits would have been mad if he invaded Ethiopia, so he knew that by doing it his plans of isolating Hitler would have failed.

And yes... probably Mussolini would have been portrayed as an hero, had England and France not placed sanctions on Italy... but that means that I would be living under a dictatorship by now... or worse... my family would have gone to France and I would be French now

The reason the Brits were enraged by the Italian invasion of Ethiopia was because Ethiopia was right in the middle of the British colonial possesions in Africa.

The French just followed along

Saluti

	28-09-2003 01:19									#15
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quote: edit: got there before me Ben Kenobi

You beat me in the peace thread, so we are even.

	28-09-2003 01:27									#16
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A couple of points:

In 1938 Germany was predominantly Catholic. Today it's 45:55 Catholic:Protestant, but in 1938 it included Ostmarch (Austria), Silesia, and Prussia, areaas which were predominantly Catholic, thus reversing the ratio.

Hitler seems to have been more of a Wotan worshipping pagan than a Catholic.

In 1938 Hitler charmed Mussolini like the old man on the corner with a bag of candy charms a child. They established an on going relationship that lasted for the rest of their lives.

The Italian military was state of the art in 1936 when Mussolini expanded his forces in order to go to Francos aid. The problem was that every model of tank and plane used in the Spanish Civil war became obsolete even before that war ended. Mussolini couldn't afford to keep up with armaments development or to re-arm in preparation for the next war.

	28-09-2003 01:32									#17
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Free the SudTirol!

	28-09-2003 01:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Free the SudTirol!

Nooooo.. It's ours... we need it in order to have a competing skying team

Saluti

	28-09-2003 01:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic This does cast a new light on Italy, thanks. Hitler called himself a "National Socialist", but remember, he was not known for his honesty. One of the groups he considered his main enemies were "the Bolshevics" . I don't see much Communism in Nazism, except that both are authoritian, as is fascism.

The differences were that German socialism included a lot of German racism, er, nationalism. Also communism believed in "communes" while socialism simply believed in state control of the economy. Clearly, Hitler did take control of the German economy.

Hitler also was anti-communist because he view communism as a tool of the USSR. They helped to overthrow the German government in 1918 and to surrender Germany (unnecessarily) to the Allies. They were to be "exterminated" as enemies of the Reich.

	28-09-2003 03:31									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The differences were that German socialism included a lot of German racism, er, nationalism. Also communism believed in "communes" while socialism simply believed in state control of the economy. Clearly, Hitler did take control of the German economy. Hitler also was anti-communist because he view communism as a tool of the USSR. They helped to overthrow the German government in 1918 and to surrender Germany (unnecessarily) to the Allies. They were to be "exterminated" as enemies of the Reich.

Yes, and so wonderfully honest were the conservatives in control of the German government before the surrender that they shoved the onerous duty of surrendering to the allies off on the Socialists, who had no connections with the Communists, nor were responsible for getting Germany into her predicament. The "men of honor" promptly went into hioding when the going went tough. Why is it that it took a second war for Germans to realize that by the fall of 1918 it was all over? Not only were the allies steadily advancing on the Western Front, but on the Southrn Front the Austrian empire had collapsed and Allied forces were advancing toward areas of Germany where there probably were no forces to oppose them. The naval rebellions were probably the kindest thing that could have happened to Germany. You'd think that at some point between the end of the war and the beginning of the world depression the German people might have gotten ahold of the truth and come to grips with reality.

	28-09-2003 03:34									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine Nooooo.. It's ours... we need it in order to have a competing skying team Saluti

Theives!!!

	28-09-2003 03:47									#22
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quote: Prussia, areaas which were predominantly Catholic,

In the thirties? Might need to check up on that.

I know that the north of Germany is predominantly protestant, or at least back in the 19th Century.

I'm going to check and see if that balance shifted so significantly in the first part of the 20th.

	28-09-2003 03:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi In the thirties? Might need to check up on that. I know that the north of Germany is predominantly protestant, or at least back in the 19th Century. I'm going to check and see if that balance shifted so significantly in the first part of the 20th.

When Prussia was given to the Hohenzollerns the native Catholics in the provinces were protected by treaty that barred forced conversion, extermination or eviction (for religious reasons). The Hohenzollerns moved in their own nobility, but the commoners remained largely Catholic.

	28-09-2003 04:04									#24
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http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/thenightyears.html


Coming as it did at the moment when the first excesses of the new regime, particularly against the Jews, had provoked worldwide revulsion, the concordat had given the Nazi regime much badly needed prestige abroad and at home and had tended to reassure German [Roman] Catholics, who comprised one-third of the people.


This includes Silesia, and Prussia, Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemburg, Westphalia, etc.

Now, even if all the Austrians were Catholic, this might make a 50-50 split between Catholics and Protestants in 1938, rather than overwhelmingly Catholic.

The First Stretch 1935-1936

On January 13, 1935, the inhabitants of the coal-rich Saar, occupied by the French since the end of the war, voted ten to one [477,000 to 48,000] to return to Germany. There had been some doubt that the Saarlanders, overwhelmingly [Roman] Catholic and mostly miners or workers in industry, would choose to go to a Germany run by a dictator who had crushed the free trade unions, harassed the Church, and destroyed the democratic republic. But the pull of the Fatherland, after years of hated French occupation, had been strong. Perhaps some were afraid to cast a ballot against Hitler for fear that if the vote returned them to Germany they might be found out and punished. Also, like most Germans, a lot of them had got the Nazi virus.

Hitler welcomed them back in a broadcast from Berlin. He took the occasion to assure the world that with the return of the Saar he had no further territorial claims on France. This was reassuring to the French because it meant that Germany had renounced its claim on Alsace and Lorraine, the bone of contention so long between the two countries, wrested from one country and then the other in bloody wars.

I flew down to Saarbrucken on March 1, when Germany formally took over the little land. I was a little surprised by the hysterical enthusiasm with which these [Roman] Catholic workers greeted the arrival of Hitler and troops of the S.S. and the army. The rain, which fell all day, did not dampen their Nazi spirits. Hitler seemed pleased.

-END QUOTE-

	28-09-2003 04:24									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/thenightyears.html Coming as it did at the moment when the first excesses of the new regime, particularly against the Jews, had provoked worldwide revulsion, the concordat had given the Nazi regime much badly needed prestige abroad and at home and had tended to reassure German [Roman] Catholics, who comprised one-third of the people.

It's simple, Shirer is wrong. My source was the 1939 Encyclopedia Britannica which my family once owned. I looked the figure up to answer a bet with a friend as to whether Nazis Germany was more Lutheran than Catholic. I lost because I had thought that Germany was mostly Lutheran.

	28-09-2003 07:02									#26
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Keep in mind the Pope was unable to stop France from taking the Protestant side in the 30 years war, back in the 17th century. I doubt he would have been able to do much good in the 20th century. As it was, Pope Pius XII did a good enough job to win the thanks of most Jewish leaders immediatly after WWII.

	28-09-2003 08:42									#27
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Dr. S:

There are other protestant groups. What were the percentage Catholics back in 1939 in your encylopedia britannica?

Interestingly,

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/events/index.html

According to Catholic Heirarchy listing of Countries

Currently, you have 26.694 million Catholics out of a population of
80.77 million in Germany or 33%.

Including Austria, you would have:

5.83 million Catholics out of 8.026 million population.

So total Austria and Germany you would have 32.52 million Catholics out of 88.8 million population, for a percentage of 36.6% Catholic.

Now, suppose we add Croatia, the proportion goes up to 38.6% of the total.

Does there seem a good reason to presume that these numbers have changed significantly over the last 60 years?

The historical records I can find go back to 1950, so I wil have a look and see what they say.

	28-09-2003 09:12									#28
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If memory serves, at the end of the 19th Century, out of a population of roughly 60 000 000, just over a third were Catholics, in the German Empire. I think the exact figure was something like 35% or 37%.

	28-09-2003 09:22									#29
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Dr.S:

A sample from the region of Prussia or German Prussia.

Prussia's a real pain because of the parts in Poland, Germany and Russia all being behind the Iron Curtain.

Province of Berlin:

1950 657,358 6,897,872 9.5%


Gorlitz:

1980 70,000 1,000,000 7.0%

1990 60,000 930,000 6.5%

1999 49,200 920,000 5.3%
2000 49,200 920,000 5.3%
2001 48,500 920,000 5.3%
2002 48,500 910,000 5.3%


Diocese of Dresden-Meissen


1950 592,531 6,042,219 9.8%

1970 351,670 5,178,526 6.8%

1980 274,500 5,217,000 5.3%

1990 248,000 4,900,000 5.1%

1999 181,113 4,385,000 4.1%
2000 181,048 4,375,000 4.1%
2001 179,360 4,359,000 4.1%
2002 179,715 4,337,000 4.1%


Now, none of these figures come close to half for German Prussia.

Let's take a look at the Polish figures, and then onto Koenigsburg/ Kaliningrad.

	28-09-2003 09:46									#30
	Re: Mussolini asked Pope to excommunicate Hitler Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin The Italian dictator Benito Mussolini asked the Pope to excommunicate Adolf Hitler days before the German leader went to Rome to seal the Axis in 1938, according to a newly discovered Vatican document.

Oh bull. I heard he was 3/4 Lutheran and 1/4 Jewish. Besides, even if he were Catholic, excommunicating heads of state was always a bad idea (ie Henry VIII). The Pope certainly didn't want him taking out his anger against Catholics any more than he already was.