28-09-2003 02:18									#31
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I'm sure the Dominion of Texas will survive

	28-09-2003 02:21									#32
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Not a problem. Nooooo problemo.

	28-09-2003 02:23									#33
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If Iraq was the attacked in that case, then I withdraw that example and accept my error .

My idea is that peace is ideal, and only when attacked can one use force, and only in the self-defence capacity, remove the ability of the aggressor to make war on you. I'd like to reach all aggressors and stop attacks full stop. Nice dream eh? Still all wars are an utterly useless waste of human life, never mind that defensive endeavors are logically legitimate in the context of nationstates.

	28-09-2003 02:26									#34
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quote: Not a problem. Nooooo problemo

I'd love to go to Texas....

	28-09-2003 02:30									#35
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Come on down, Elijah. Always welcome.

This? "defensive endeavors are logically legitimate in the context of nationstates."

Convince Michael of this.
I know it. Longstreet knew it.
Michael likes to storm the castle though.

	28-09-2003 02:37									#36
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See ya next year!

Don't know the people you're talking about, but people who disagree with me can errr... go somewhere bad elijah moderates himself, I don't care! As long as I have my say, then I'm good, what people do with that is their business.

	28-09-2003 02:39									#37
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quote: You can't leave out the known factor that there will always be bullies in the world. No, not like the U.S.; I mean like Hussein, Bin Laden, etc.

The US trained Bin Laden, supplied VX gas to Saddam, and trained him in the use of Anthrax, and McVeigh was an passionate American sargent. We are our own worst enemy.

	28-09-2003 02:40									#38
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I'm nailing MtG's hide to the wall, referencing James Longstreet of the Confederate States of America, and Longstreet's desire to conduct business differently at this place in Pennsylvania long ago.

Michael doesn't agree, excessively.

	28-09-2003 02:41									#39
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realpolitik: I don't think thats fair. The USA had no idea that it would come and bite them back in the ass. We can't foresee the outcomes of all our actions, they were doing what they thought was best at the time, now we can argue about that, not the unforeseen outcomes.

	28-09-2003 02:45									#40
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic The US trained Bin Laden, supplied VX gas to Saddam, and trained him in the use of Anthrax, and McVeigh was an passionate American sargent. We are our own worst enemy.

Which is exactly why I say the USA should be allied with Britain and Israel, and go slowly from there.
Again, "the enemy of my enmey is my friend" thoughts are utter crap.

	28-09-2003 02:45									#41
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hmmm, I learned that I'd best keep my nose very much out of the civil war stuff...

	28-09-2003 03:21									#42
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quote: Originally posted by elijah realpolitik: I don't think thats fair. The USA had no idea that it would come and bite them back in the ass. We can't foresee the outcomes of all our actions, they were doing what they thought was best at the time, now we can argue about that, not the unforeseen outcomes.

"He's an SOB, but he's our SOB" -LBJ

We supported Bin Laden, when we could have supported more moderate Muslims, because he was the fastest path to beating the Soviets in Afganistan.

We gave Saddam WMDs, knowing how brutal he was.

Hateful people tend to just find more people to hate, it isn't rocket science.

As for McVeigh, the connection is more vague. He said his allegence shifted after realizing the Gulf War was about oil. Here we lied to a "killing machine" and assumed he wouldn't do anything.

	28-09-2003 03:29									#43
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quote: only when attacked can one use force, and only in the self-defence capacity, remove the ability of the aggressor to make war on you.

So an eye for an eye, Elijah?

That's still not pacifism. Pacifism means not retaliating when attacked.

	28-09-2003 04:37									#44
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quote: So an eye for an eye, Elijah?

No, otherwise I would support all of these post 9/11 bloodlettings. I'm saying that when ones survival is in question one can defend oneself. Same goes for an individual. I'm talking about a situation like the summer of 1940 in Britain or some bloke giving me a right hook.

Pacifism is about not having wars. Put simply, my position is no war except when it is your only hope for survival, and even then it still sucks!

RP: They were asking for it admittedly, but in specific cases like this, we can't really blame the USA for those men, only as part of a general pattern.

	28-09-2003 10:28									#45
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Here we lied to a "killing machine" and assumed he wouldn't do anything.

I call BS.

	28-09-2003 10:53									#46
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Iran can kiss off, too. Nation of jackasses. Ayatollah Khomeini's boy, back mouthing off again.

Most Iranians like Americans and America...

	28-09-2003 10:54									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So an eye for an eye, Elijah? That's still not pacifism. Pacifism means not retaliating when attacked.

Christ said turn the other cheek.
Do what, when the other cheek has the spit knocked out of it?
Answer? Dust them.

	28-09-2003 12:34									#48
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"Perhaps those ... Christians among us who refuse to bear arms for the purpose of shedding human blood, may be preserved by divine providence as the center of a circle, which shall gradually embrace all nations of the earth in a perpetual treaty of friendship and peace" (quoted in War, Peace, and Nonresistance, Guy F. Hershberger, Herald Press, copyright renewed 1981, p. 101).

	28-09-2003 13:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Again, "the enemy of my enmey is my friend" thoughts are utter crap.

Yet, this is what the United States did during the Cold War, in forcing anti-communist dictatorships in Third World countries.

	28-09-2003 15:03									#50
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quote: Christ said turn the other cheek. Do what, when the other cheek has the spit knocked out of it? Answer? Dust them.

Rather, dust if it is the only thing that will prevent you being dusted. Just don't dust first. Thats workable pacifism.