28-09-2003 18:30									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Yes. The military talks about how precise they're bombs are. how all-knowing and infallible their intelligence is. How they can, as I said, see the logo on a golf ball from a satallite. But can still blow up a red cross hostpital and not give a damn.

(Ming spare me.) The military never claimed that they could make sure all bombs land on target. Show me the specific statement from the military that is incorrect.

You built up your own straw man from little snippets on the news and through jumping to conclusions. The real world is not a Civ game. If we had perfect strike capabilities (including perfect intelligence and delivery) than the groundbreaking thing would not be elimination of civilian casualties it would be the elimination of any need for "re-strike".

	28-09-2003 18:31									#92
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When I saw the thread title and who started it I knew it would be fun reading!

The significance of the find is that it reiterates the point that there are still weapons caches all over the country. The chem weapons will be found if we're given enough time. The bio-weapons are probably gone since they're easier to destroy quickly.

If Sadie was such an astute politician, and if Iraq had no WMD, would one of the Sadie-lovers out there please explain why he did not simply open up the country to the inspectors? If he had done that he would still be in power and happily allowing dobermans to kill and eat the generals he distrusted

	28-09-2003 18:38									#93
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Old Europe was in shock when we were welcomed by the Iraqis. Now they try to say that we are not welcomed when a clear majority does.

Attachment: kiss.jpg
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	28-09-2003 18:42									#94
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First, he did allow inspectors in but according to Scott Ritter, the CIA was using the inspections to gather information on Saddam, his movements, and his hideaways. The inspectors were pulled out at the request of Bill Clinton prior to the bombing campaign of 1998 and didn't go back. Second, I've heard the explanation that the Iraqis didn't want neighbors like Iran to know if they had weapons for fear of an invasion, so, they had a "beware of dog" sign left on the fence but no dog to back it up.

Time will tell if they have WMD buried somewhere, but I'd think we'd have gotten someone to talk by now...

	28-09-2003 18:44									#95
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Now who's building straw men?

Us Euro's always expected the Iraqi's to be pleased at the ousting fo their despot - the question we asked was whether they would be willing to live under american rule for the time needed to install a truely democratic government (i.e. 5+ years)

	28-09-2003 18:45									#96
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I doubt that we will find caches of chemical weapons. We have already found hidden documents for nuclear production and have found two trucks for bio-work. And a lot of the chemical and nuclear industry was meant to be dual use. No doubt. But the key thing was that he did not comply with the inspections and that we know that he is a hazard since he has actually used these weapons in the past and has sought development for decades. If the UN had invaded in 1998 when inspectors were thrown out, this would not be a debate between Old Europe and the US. Instead, they took the road of appeasement.

	28-09-2003 18:45									#97
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So you Radical Liberal's contention is that Hussein was allowed under terms of the cease-fire to have SAM's ? I give up on you worthless *******s.

This is Fez level logic.

Hmm, under the cease-fire agreement he was allowed ballistic missiles with ranges under 93 miles (150 km), tanks, aircraft, an army of over 300,000..but somehow not shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles (though he could keep SA-2's and other SAM installations against high-flying warplanes)...yesh Sloww, you trully prove your knowledge on this area..........

quote: Old Europe was in shock when we were welcomed by the Iraqis. Now they try to say that we are not welcomed when a clear majority does.

Ah, the old "talking out of one's rear" routine..wait, this is from TCO, that isn't old.

You know, we should really dig up the war time threads an examine the record and see who's turned out more wrong....

	28-09-2003 18:48									#98
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I doubt that we will find caches of chemical weapons. We have already found hidden documents for nuclear production and have found two trucks for bio-work.

Actually, the admin claims the trailer were for bio-wrk but has been unable to convince any independent analysts that they have anything close to conclusive proof..more people think the Iraqi claim of their use is more likely. Keep up with the news.

	28-09-2003 18:48									#99
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That was my thought Ben, a great sig line.

	28-09-2003 18:49									#100
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Now who's building straw men? Us Euro's always expected the Iraqi's to be pleased at the ousting fo their despot - the question we asked was whether they would be willing to live under american rule for the time needed to install a truely democratic government (i.e. 5+ years)

Paiktis was honest. He said there was surprise at these images. I remember.

	28-09-2003 18:50									#101
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Actually, the admin claims the trailer were for bio-wrk but has been unable to convince any independent analysts that they have anything close to conclusive proof..more people think the Iraqi claim of their use is more likely. Keep up with the news.

What are the trucks for?

	28-09-2003 18:51									#102
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quote: If the UN had invaded in 1998 when inspectors were thrown out, this would not be a debate between Old Europe and the US.

The inspectors were never thrown out, only ****ed with a bit and then left. It also should be noted that the US inspectors were engaged in espionage:
http://www.fair.org/activism/unscom-history.html

	28-09-2003 18:53									#103
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quote: Originally posted by GePap This is Fez level logic. Hmm, under the cease-fire agreement he was allowed ballistic missiles with ranges under 93 miles (150 km), tanks, aircraft, an army of over 300,000..but somehow not shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles (though he could keep SA-2's and other SAM installations against high-flying warplanes)...yesh Sloww, you trully prove your knowledge on this area.......... quote: Old Europe was in shock when we were welcomed by the Iraqis. Now they try to say that we are not welcomed when a clear majority does. Ah, the old "talking out of one's rear" routine..wait, this is from TCO, that isn't old. You know, we should really dig up the war time threads an examine the record and see who's turned out more wrong....

Feel free. Start with Roland's Stalingrad thread at Counterglow. And note that I had to hunt him down to acknowledge he was wrong. He was more interested in argument-winning or the appearance of it than admitting error.

	28-09-2003 18:54									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko The inspectors were never thrown out, only ****ed with a bit and then left. It also should be noted that the US inspectors were engaged in espionage: http://www.fair.org/activism/unscom-history.html

Saddam did not cooperate with the inspections. Just like Hitler did not abide by the Versailles treaty when he entered the Rhineland. And in both cases, the dictator was not held accountable until later.

	28-09-2003 18:55									#105
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Paiktis was honest. He said there was surprise at these images. I remember.

If I remember correctly the surprise was at the rapid collapse of the Baathist regime.


Presumably the US was also surprised by the suddeness of the collapse, otherwise they would surely have had a coherent plan in place for administering the country.

	28-09-2003 18:56									#106
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TCO, you can't convince anyone that doesn't understand.
They'd have to have been paying attention for 12 years.
Most of these guys are bankrupt when it comes to paying attention.

	28-09-2003 18:56									#107
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No. I remember quite well.

	28-09-2003 18:57									#108
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Saddam did not cooperate with the inspections. Just like Hitler did not abide by the Versailles treaty when he entered the Rhineland. And in both cases, the dictator was not held accountable until later.

He had good reason not to comply with them, for while they were doing some good they were also being used as a cover for US espionage. And the Hitler allegories are ridiculous, Saddam wasn't a danger to anyone but Iraqis after Gulf War I...

	28-09-2003 18:57									#109
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Freako, this was when we were taking casualties in the south from suicide bombers and when there was a lot of discussion about how we were NOT being welcomed by the population.

	28-09-2003 18:57									#110
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quote: he is a hazard since he has actually used these weapons in the past

Not on the US, not in Gulf War I or II (I expected him to use them the second time around), and when he was using them, the Dems and GOP didn't give a sh!t because it was against the Iranians who were also using them. As for the Kurds, I've heard conflicting reports about who used them there and who was the target. The town was the site of a battle between the Iranians and Iraqis and the Kurds may have been caught between the 2 sides. I can't remember the name of the guy, but he's a conservative republican who claims the Kurds were "colateral damage" so to speak.

	28-09-2003 18:58									#111
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Iraq attempted to comply with inspections, but nothing they could realistically have done would have made a difference. When one wants to invade a country, just make constantly escalating unreasonable demands. It worked before, and it'll work again.

	28-09-2003 18:58									#112
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quote: Originally posted by TCO What are the trucks for?

The claim is for creating hydrogen to fill artillery spotter balloons. Iraq bought such systems from the Brits during the Iraq-Iran war.

quote: Feel free. Start with Roland's Stalingrad thread at Counterglow. And note that I had to hunt him down to acknowledge he was wrong. He was more interested in argument-winning or the appearance of it than admitting error.

Thankfully I do not inhabit forums like counterglow. So why don't you start here?

If you ever want a reasoned arguement, feel free to ask for one, I promise I won't demaguoge you like you demaguoge your opponents constantly.

	28-09-2003 18:58									#113
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Saddam did not cooperate with the inspections. Just like Hitler did not abide by the Versailles treaty when he entered the Rhineland. And in both cases, the dictator was not held accountable until later.

And the US went against the international community and the wishes of the UN, just as Italy and Japan did with the League of Nations in the 1930's - in both cases these did irreparable damage to the international balance of power and made large wars of aggression more likely.

	28-09-2003 18:59									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko He had good reason not to comply with them, for while they were doing some good they were also being used as a cover for US espionage. And the Hitler allegories are ridiculous, Saddam wasn't a danger to anyone but Iraqis after Gulf War I...

He had agreed to the inspections. The US espionage thing is a red herring son. He had to open up to inspection as part of the conditions of Gulf War 1. And I'll remind you that almost Democrats were against GW1! Check out the vote in the Senate on authorization. Only 7 voted for the war.

	28-09-2003 19:01									#115
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand TCO, you can't convince anyone that doesn't understand. They'd have to have been paying attention for 12 years. Most of these guys are bankrupt when it comes to paying attention.

So Sloww, since you are a paragon of logic..please explain to us why Iraq was allowed ballistic missiles with ranges under 93 miles, but not shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles: I would really like to know. Heck, since you like doing it so much, cut and paste the entire cease-fire agreement on here. Do make sure though to bold the section were they prohibit SAM's though, since reading all of that will be sort of a drag.

	28-09-2003 19:01									#116
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quote: Originally posted by el freako And the US went against the international community and the wishes of the UN, just as Italy and Japan did with the League of Nations in the 1930's - in both cases these did irreparable damage to the international balance of power and made large wars of aggression more likely.

Nah...those guys were evil fascists. Are you really comparing us to them. Get some time in the real world. We are the brave guys who won WW2 and the Cold War.

	28-09-2003 19:05									#117
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Well, that's what worries me TCO.

If people like you and Slowwhand represent the future of the US (might makes right, any dissent is unpatriotic, other countries have to do what we say) then I would say that I am justifiably worried about a possible future US.

	28-09-2003 19:06									#118
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So Sloww, since you are a paragon of logic..please explain to us why Iraq was allowed ballistic missiles with ranges under 93 miles, but not shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles: I would really like to know. Heck, since you like doing it so much, cut and paste the entire cease-fire agreement on here. Do make sure though to bold the section were they prohibit SAM's though, since reading all of that will be sort of a drag.

hi ,

cause huh , those man portable sams where being sold to anyone who wanted them , .......

have a nice day

	28-09-2003 19:06									#119
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So Sloww, since you are a paragon of logic..please explain to us why Iraq was allowed ballistic missiles with ranges under 93 miles, but not shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles: I would really like to know. Heck, since you like doing it so much, cut and paste the entire cease-fire agreement on here. Do make sure though to bold the section were they prohibit SAM's though, since reading all of that will be sort of a drag.

Do it yourself, Lazyass.

SAMs are used against aircraft.
You know, the type aircraft used by Coalition troops patrolling the No Fly Zone?

	28-09-2003 19:11									#120
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quote: If people like you and Slowwhand represent the future of the US (might makes right, any dissent is unpatriotic, other countries have to do what we say) then I would say that I am justifiably worried about a possible future US.

I don't think Sloww and TCO could represent the future of anything.