28-09-2003 21:30									#211
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Maybe his "at the moment" cpability was not up to it. But he was biding his time. It was better to deal with it now...maybe down the line, we wouldn't have had the will. bottom line. He made agreements at the point of a gun in 1991. He blew them off. We brought back the gun.

Snooze. Biding his time? It had been 12 years and he had absolutely no ****ing future prospects. He was a has-been.
There is such a thing as too much willingness to use force, just as there is such a thing as too much unwillingness.

	28-09-2003 21:32									#212
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Fighting Saddam in 2003 would have been like fighting Germany in 1930. As I recall, they'd dicked around with their agreements then too. And no, at that point it wouldn't have been worth it. Not unless you can claim an incredible amount of prescience.

	28-09-2003 21:32									#213
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: And without the US, that war would never have been fought. Or maybe we would have had to fight it AFTER Saudi Arabia was taken over. And did he have any designs on SA? As of August 2 1990, saddam could have just kept driving: there was no need to stop at the SA Kuwait border if Saudi Arabia was the aim, anymore than the Germans would have had to stop to consolidate Denmark when going after Norway.

He certainly had designs on the overall region. We even fought a battle on SA soil. But noone knows why he didn't just keep going. I assume that he wanted to avoid a war. Figured he'd eat one morsel and wait. since you used a Hitler analogy, maybe you can think of some there.

In other words, he did not stop because:

a. He didn't want SA.

or

b. he couldn't keep going logistically

rather

c. He planned to get it eventually.

But of course, there is d (he is an idiot) to consider.

In the end who knows. Maybe even A is right. I doubt it. But maybe you could make an argument there. But after swallowing one neighbor, it was too much of a danger that he would want the next later.

	28-09-2003 21:35									#214
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So we are only supposed to fight large forces, Kitty? We can't fight aggressive weak ones? I think the Cold War showed that we are much more willing to fight an aggressive weak one than an aggressive strong one. That's why we didn't fight the Warsaw Block.

	28-09-2003 21:36									#215
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I wonder how much time Saddam would have needed to rearm his troops to reach the same military strength as in 1991, considering that, because of the Embargos being in Place most of the Weapons and other stuff (spareparts and the like) his army needed could only be smuggled in with great difficulties.
(asuming that no war had taken place and a Weapons Embargo would stay in Place after even after the UN Inspectors finally claimed that Saddam doesn´t possess any WMDs and so most other Embargos would get lifted)

1 Decade? 2 Decades? Even longer?

	28-09-2003 21:41									#216
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I wasn't willing to take the chance. He had played a cat and mouse game with inspections. If he had complied with them and we knew that he had no WOMD (not the reverse) than I would have been willing to wait it out. But he had been failing to cooperate for a while. The inspectors were only reintroduced at the point of a gun. It was very evident that he took the long view and that he did his best to try to fracture the coalition required to keep him isolated and in check.

	28-09-2003 21:41									#217
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Oh hell. Again with the stinking red savages? They have it made. They're spending the equivalent of the national deficit, adding on to their bingo halls.

wtf?

Care to elaborate, Sloww?

	28-09-2003 21:42									#218
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Seemed pretty easy to understand to me. I don't agree. But I understand.

	28-09-2003 21:45									#219
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quote: Originally posted by TCO So we are only supposed to fight large forces, Kitty? We can't fight aggressive weak ones? I think the Cold War showed that we are much more willing to fight an aggressive weak one than an aggressive strong one. That's why we didn't fight the Warsaw Block.

No, but Hitler justification only works for aggressive strong forces. Need other justifications for weak ones. Need something like benefits outweighing costs. Aggressive strong force is exempt from that requirement because you can argue future necessity. In other words inaction is a direct threat to your future ability for action.

Otherwise, as I've said, you've created a blanket justification for war all the time. Which is stupid and opens you up to "so if you fought X, why didn't you fight Y and Z". And the only answer I've seen from anybody on that is "because we didn't feel like it. Inconsistent and hypocritical. Points to mendaciousness.

	28-09-2003 21:48									#220
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Evidence for CBN weapons was sorely lacking, for the good reason that they didn't exist in significant quantities...

Bogeyman made up by your liar of an admin to scare their own population into backing them.

I've talked to a number of people here who are starting to feel angry about that (ones who were originally up for a fight).

	28-09-2003 21:52									#221
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quote: Originally posted by TCO He certainly had designs on the overall region. We even fought a battle on SA soil. But noone knows why he didn't just keep going. I assume that he wanted to avoid a war. Figured he'd eat one morsel and wait. since you used a Hitler analogy, maybe you can think of some there. In other words, he did not stop because: a. He didn't want SA. or b. he couldn't keep going logistically rather c. He planned to get it eventually. But of course, there is d (he is an idiot) to consider. In the end who knows. Maybe even A is right. I doubt it. But maybe you could make an argument there. But after swallowing one neighbor, it was too much of a danger that he would want the next later.

Based on a lot of things, I think Saddam didn't want Saudi Arabia proper. More religious fanatics, more terrain that is hard to defend, and custodianship of Mecca and Medina would all be hard to defend.

What Saddam did want is "do you want to be my ***** next?" leverage for negotiating with SA and the other gulf monarchies. After the Iran-Iraq war, he was in a mess economically, he wanted new toys for his military, and he felt that since he kept the Iranians off of everyone's ass and got most of his southern oil production hammered in the process, that his "brother Arabs" could damn well chip a bit more of their fortunes to help him after all he'd done for them.

The Kuwaitis were arrogant ****** (they still are) and nobody liked them, so Saddam figured when they told him to stuff himself that making a little example of them would teach everyone else a lesson. Saddam wanted a ten billion "loan" and an adjustment of a disputed border area which the Kuwaitis kept building in, despite a prior agreement not to.

Under the circumstances, I wouldn't quite put it as (d) he was an idiot, but more (e) he made a big, but not unreasonable, miscalculation as to everyone's reaction. The Emir of Kuwait and the Kuwaiti royals were pretty much the last group that you'd expect to generate any sympathy, whether real or strategic.

WRT the attack in and around al Khafji, that showed all the signs of being a very poorly coordinated, maybe even "accidental" (a la the intent was simply to reposition, and the "attack" built up from a movement to contact) local action by one Iraqi infantry division with no indication of Corps or higher level support. A FUBAR, in other words.

Saddam is still an ******* though, and the world is better off without him.

	28-09-2003 21:57									#222
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Evidence for CBN weapons was sorely lacking, for the good reason that they didn't exist in significant quantities... Bogeyman made up by your liar of an admin to scare their own population into backing them. I've talked to a number of people here who are starting to feel angry about that (ones who were originally up for a fight).

Yep, Apolyton seems to be a good place to see this Phenomenon.
Many of those people who backed the war now get more and moe angry about the Bush-Administration as it, with pasng time becomes clearer and clearer that the reason for the UN-Inspectors not finding any WMDs may be, that there were no WMDs in Iraq (at least not in the quantities clamed by the US Administration).
We had the ame in a grman Forum. from 4 Pro War People now 3 have turned Anti War as thee wasn´t found any Evidence for WMDs

	28-09-2003 21:57									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Saddam did nothing wrong (aside from tyring to assassinate presdient bush).

unbelievable

	28-09-2003 22:02									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Yep, Apolyton seems to be a good place to see this Phenomenon.

Actually, I meant "here" as my physical location in the gunshot capital of the US.

	28-09-2003 22:03									#225
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quote: Originally posted by centrifuge unbelievable

What's unbelievable? Diss's troll, or someone falling for it?

	28-09-2003 22:07									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Second, I've heard the explanation that the Iraqis didn't want neighbors like Iran to know if they had weapons for fear of an invasion, so, they had a "beware of dog" sign left on the fence but no dog to back it up.

Sorry, it doesnt hold water. Iraq's arsenal of wmd (as well as his heavy combat units) were considerably reduced after GW1. The wmd he had left (or was preparing to make) were not enough to bluff the Iranians if they decided to re-take Basra.

quote: Time will tell if they have WMD buried somewhere, but I'd think we'd have gotten someone to talk by now...

We still await sadies capture despite a $25M bounty.

	28-09-2003 22:14									#227
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I don't think you are. This is addressed more to Roland who showed his true cards when he said he wanted to eat chips while watching the muslims and US kill each other. Who said that we had a Stalingrad when we had a 3 day delay. Who was confident that WOMD would be fabricated by US forces (or found in actuality). Who obsesses about a country he has never visited. Who sees everything in a little-brother mindset of jealousy.

How did this thread jump to four more pages in 12 hours??


Anyway, if Roland really was serious when he said he would take pleasure in US soldiers getting killed over there . . . well, we have words to describe people who think like that.

	28-09-2003 22:17									#228
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The claim is for creating hydrogen to fill artillery spotter balloons. Iraq bought such systems from the Brits during the Iraq-Iran war.

Actually the bio-reactors were mobile ice cream makers.

	28-09-2003 22:23									#229
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Hardy har..NOT

Keep up with the news. The sole piece of "evidence" the admin. could claim and even that fell apart. How pityfull.

	28-09-2003 22:25									#230
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What's unbelievable? Diss's troll, or someone falling for it?

Okay, I'm a sucker.

The unbelievable part is that there are some people around here that actually represent their views in this fashion.


My fear is that some people may actually believe that sort of $%&*. Certainly, everything that the media reports should be viewed with some cynicism.

...and indeed it is healthy to question the actions of the government.

...but to suggest that Saddam didn't have it coming is absurd.

	28-09-2003 22:37									#231
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Actually, I meant "here" as my physical location in the gunshot capital of the US.

Ah, is there also such a clear difference between pre/during war and now?
No wonder

But you´ve got to admit, that there is also a difference here in Apolyton between Pre/during War and now (although maybe not as big as in Washington)

	28-09-2003 23:44									#232
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Becuase the chickenhawks were right and Roland was wrong?

Because both were wrong. But I have no interest in talking to you. It's your usual twisting of words, and then talking about the correction as evasion etc all over this thread. Have fun making an idiot of yourself.

	28-09-2003 23:46									#233
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Anyway, if Roland really was serious when he said he would take pleasure in US soldiers getting killed over there . . . well, we have words to describe people who think like that.

Don't believe what he pulls out of his ass.

I've been against this war because I was 99 % sure that the Bushies would mess it up, and they have. End of story.

	28-09-2003 23:57									#234
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all I can say is it is dangerous to support the U.S. no matter what it does.

I made that mistake. I believed the lies about supporting the U.S. during wartime.

Never again.

It is clear we shouldn't have attacked Iraq with this president.

Maybe if we had a president who knew what he was doing, then yes- we should have attacked Iraq.

	29-09-2003 00:12									#235
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Good. Join the peckerhead crowd over there on the Extreme Left side of the room.

	29-09-2003 00:16									#236
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Oh geez, not this BS about Saddam invading Saudi Arabia again. Several months after Gulf War I, a Florida paper exposed the lie, yes, another lie from a Bush, that satellite photographs revealed Saddam's tanks had rolled into NE Saudi Arabia - the photos were bogus! They were used to convince the Saudis to let us "save" them and along with God only knows what bribes, helped do the trick.

Use a little logic, Saddam didn't invade Kuwait until after meeting with the US ambassador and getting what in effect was a green light. Saddam was told the US had no treaty with Kuwait and had no desire to get involved in an existing dispute between the 2 countries (Kuwait may have been side-drilling into Iraqi territory - stealing oil).

Hell, I'm shedding no tears over Saddam's predicament and I'm quite happy the Iraqi people are free of him, but that doesn't mean I'm somehow obliged to condone the lies and falsehoods told by the people running the US government. Just tell us the truth...

	29-09-2003 00:20									#237
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Slow

	29-09-2003 00:21									#238
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I'm not a peacknik!

I support war in most circumstances. I am after all, a warmonger and a whoremonger.

But I just can't shake the feeling that Bush is the most horrible president this country has ever had. Another president could have took down Iraq successfully.

	29-09-2003 00:24									#239
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Oh bullshit, Dissident.
Do you pay a speck of attention?

Hussein places armament among civilians, and does he catch hell from these people at ACS?
HELL, no. It's Bush's fault.
JUST a for instance.

	29-09-2003 00:25									#240
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The U.S. would do the same thing if we were in his position.

Do you expect Saddam to do things that will put him at a disadvantage against a superior force?