28-09-2003 12:19									#1
	Least used SE choice: Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

(I'm not including Future Society SE choices since they usually come too late in-game to matter much)

So which social engineering choice do you consider the most neglected? The bias for most SMAC experts is pretty apparent in a Demo/FM/Wealth or Demo/Green/Knowledge model, or something akin to it. Even momentum factions end up employing relatively liberal SE choices.

Personally, I think Fundamentalism has to be the least used. Most SMAC players seem to be research obsessed and the idea of deliberately curbing it is abhorrent. Also, the associations of Fundy with Miriam aren't easily overcome, given the almost universal vehemence towards the red-haired priestess.

Police State I imagine is a close second because its inefficiencies are difficult to stomach, and the majority of players consider this drawback outweighs the POLICE/SUPPORT upside. I think Police State edges out Fundamentlism in use because Yang can use his Government of choice with impunity, but Miriam cannot.

Power is another SE you don't see mentioned in player strategy threads. The hit to the industry is just too much to bear.

Although personally I try to give all of these maligned and neglected SE choices a fair shake. I regularly employ a Fundamentalism government early game if I'm at war; it really helps with probe skirmishes and storming the gates when morale upgrades are at a premium. Police State helps tame resource and drone problems until I'm ready to make the switch to Democracy more or less permanently (like preparing the switch from Monarchy to Republic in Civ after you've secured your borders and have some infrastructure). Power I'll employ when at war as long as I have a standing army already deployed and on the march.

So what are your thoughts on the most rusty SE choice in the SMAC player's arsenal?

	28-09-2003 15:44									#2
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For me its a toss up between fundy and power.

	28-09-2003 18:56									#3
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Fundi's seen an upserge of use with the Fundy/FM/Wealth probe war machine of Morgan, so I'd have to say Power's the least seen actually used.

	28-09-2003 20:19									#4
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Personally its Fundy for me, but Laz is going to have trouble because he'd say Demo

-Jam

	28-09-2003 21:18									#5
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Power is generally pretty useless. The only thing which could possibly make it worthwhile is running fundie or PS with it, so I'd say it's certainly my least used.

Fundie is really not that bad. Not something to stick with, but flicking into it for 10 turns is handy, especially for the Spartans.

	29-09-2003 02:04									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Personally its Fundy for me, but Laz is going to have trouble because he'd say Demo -Jam

Theres no point to elections, id just rig them

	29-09-2003 02:12									#7
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Power is actually slightly useful if you grab the Cloning Vats. Of course, the game is usually over by then. Without the cloning vats, nothing can really substitute for the industry hit (since it also makes rush-buying more expensive). Probe teams can substitute for the research hit of fundy.

	29-09-2003 03:00									#8
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Power. Even with the Cloning Vats, I'll take the extra efficiency from Knowledge or the extra Industry from Wealth in lieu of a morale and support bonus from Power.

	29-09-2003 03:56									#9
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It would have to be Fundamentalism, because not only do I play the University at least 90% of the time, I would consider myself obsessed with research, development, and future technology, which Fundamentalism goes against.

	29-09-2003 05:29									#10
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I actually have an aversion towards Free Market. I find the -3 Planet and -5 Police something I don't want in the long term. I just see more benefit in a Green economy, as it makes it easier to subdue native life, move through fungus before the Xeno dome and sometimes even capture mind worms.

Unless I am using the Gaians and using Mind Worms for my military, I won't use Wealth either, due to the -2 Morale penalty. Even when using the Morganites, I find more benefit from running Knowledge instead. At that point there will be at least one enemy to fight, and I need my troops to be at their peak, without resorting to the High Morale special ability.

	29-09-2003 07:30									#11
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Wealth and Free Market are probably the two MOST used SE choices, after Planned and Democracy

	29-09-2003 09:42									#12
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I'd think that the next most used SE choice after Democratic and Planned would be Knowledge or Green.
Those using Knowledge don't have to worry about -2 Morale or -2 Industry.
Also, the +2 Efficiency and +2 Planet can be very useful once the user's faction has expanded.
Then there's always the Future Societies that come in at the late game, but I really wouldn't know other people's opinions on them.

	29-09-2003 11:21									#13
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I dislike Power because of the Industry penalty.

Future Societies are fun. Thought Control is my favorite.

	29-09-2003 15:45									#14
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Fundy, because I am always playing as the Hive or the Drones.

	29-09-2003 16:23									#15
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I agree with Crimson Sunrise on 4 counts :

I dislike Power because of the Industry penalty.
Future Societies are fun.
Thought Control is my favorite.
I hate Arsenal too

-Jam

	29-09-2003 16:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I hate Arsenal too -Jam

Let me guess; you're a Spurs fan?

* * *

I used to use Knowledge all the time but I became a Wealth user because I like having lots of energy credits.

	29-09-2003 22:38									#17
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Damn Jenas and Bramble, bunch of idiots.

	29-09-2003 22:59									#18
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I always switch to Power when I go to war, to get the morale bonus. Why would anyone not want the extra morale bonus when they go to war? It's an easy bonus.

	29-09-2003 23:00									#19
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Fundy is useless to me, cause I never play as Miriam.

	30-09-2003 01:10									#20
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Hmm. Let's look at those last two posts:

Power -> Morale and Power = good
Fundy = bad

...but Fundy -> Morale.

In fact, for most factions, before lots of +morale buildings, Fundy with or without Power gives +1 morale level on both offense and defense. If you look at it that way, the +2 probe is icing.

In a more than 2 player game, though, going Power/Fundy to win a war is a death wish, because you choke yourself and your opponent (if you're fighting both you're doomed or you've already won), while letting any other opponents prosper. If you really must go to war, you can't let it cost you much.

	30-09-2003 03:22									#21
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quote: Let me guess; you're a Spurs fan?

Sadly much worse. I'm an eternal Red. (And yes I actually do come from Manchester)

Sorry, insanely offtopic

-Jam

	30-09-2003 03:54									#22
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SMAC :
You all forgot the alliance factor. If you play Transcend, you should have at least two reliable allies; since Miriam is a like rabid dog and there are games when I don't even bother to respond to commlinks until she begs for mercy, and since Lal and Deirdre could prove useful allies I usually run demo/green in the long run, and then knowledge or wealth. The thing is, although I _never_ pressed the "Fundamentalist" button I seldom did, at wartime, used the "Power" setting (when I was too hooked up on efficiency or growth to change from demo/green).

Plus, everybody complains about -2 Industry with power. In my opinion, 2 Research is a much more important thing to waste.

	30-09-2003 03:57									#23
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Since I avoid playing the Spartans because of their -1 Industry, it should come as no surprise that I avoid Power's -2 like the plague.

At least with Fundy, you can steal tech. You can't really steal minerals.

	30-09-2003 13:37									#24
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You can't steal minerals, but you can steal units.

	30-09-2003 16:59									#25
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You can boost your mineral output by building crawlers, facilities, or by heaving a healthy economy. Tech is much more important.

	30-09-2003 17:51									#26
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Depends on how far behind or in front of the tech race you are as well as what your enemies have. For instance, I'm *well* ahead of tech race in a recent Morgan game after grabbing a chain of 'Secret of' techs (Creation/Alpha Centauri/Manifolds) and get a tech every 2 rounds with almost no energy in Research (yay for Transends!). The other factions aren't anywhere close to getting Singularity Mechanics and they sure as hell aren't getting it from me (Thanks again, Hunter-Seeker Algorithm!). Early on when the tech race is still tight it would be a different story provided my victim has stuff I need or is likely to go for what I need in the near future. IE: when the University starts its beeline for Pre-Sentient Algorithms or the Hive gets Doctrine: Air. Not to mention if I have the forces to keep the lions at bay once the vendetta goes into effect.

BTW, I'd like to say I agree with an earlier poster who had issues with Free Market. The penalties are way too much to make up for the extra money and the credit boost isn't significant enough compared to the benefits from Green. In most cases, Free Market might net you 200-300 more energy per turn at best (even with Demo/FM/Wealth).

Demo + Green + Wealth + Thought Control =

Last edited by igtenos on 30-09-2003 at 17:58

	30-09-2003 21:47									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I always switch to Power when I go to war, to get the morale bonus. Why would anyone not want the extra morale bonus when they go to war? It's an easy bonus.

Because I'd rather have an extra +3 industry (power as to wealth) and even disciplined troops at the least.
Build a few morale improvements at the bases that are going to make military units and then you get your morale boost while the rest of your empire still thrives in an industry boom.

	01-10-2003 00:11									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Scytale You can boost your mineral output by building crawlers, facilities, or by heaving a healthy economy. Tech is much more important.

You can also boost your tech by crawling energy, but while stealing units and bases costs credits, stealing tech is free and easy. In addition, you can crawl an arbitrary amount of energy or nutrients without causing eco-damage, the same cannot be said of minerals.

Sorry, but no matter how you slice it, industry is stronger than tech.

	01-10-2003 10:39									#29
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A +2 Inudstry rating will get the industrial cost lower to 80%, making the industrial speed rise 25%, as opposed to +2 Research's +20% rate.

However, a -2 Industry rate will have the industrial cost rise to 120%, making the industrial speed lower 16.67%, as opposed to -2 Research's -20% rate.

This means that at positive rates, Industry will be more important, and at negative rates, Research will be more important, so while Eudaimonic will look nicer than Cybernetic, Power seems more valuable than Fundamentalist.

Another thing I'd like to note is that the industry rating has no effect on how many units a base can hold before it runs out of minerals.

	01-10-2003 23:00									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

whoa it's like Yang, Morgan and Zakharov themselves decided to post the last three notes here. Sooner or later someone with a Miriam pic will say "rot in hell all ye wretched unbelievers, for Fundamentalism is the only way, and you ar tampering with the workings of an angry God bla bla".