30-09-2003 01:50									#31
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I think the basic point being made here by those who are defending the choice of Medieval Infantry is that these will definitely not be useless in a war versus CFC. So even if we do build a couple more than we need right now, they'll still see plenty of (useful) action against our next target.


Dominae

	30-09-2003 01:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think the basic point being made here by those who are defending the choice of Medieval Infantry is that these will definitely not be useless in a war versus CFC. So even if we do build a couple more than we need right now, they'll still see plenty of (useful) action against our next target. Dominae

A 4 attack unit is NEVER useless until the opposition starts getting riflemen. The big stack philosophy Arnelos was talking about is tailor-made for slow-movers like medieval infantry with NM defense.

	30-09-2003 02:07									#33
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I don't see how a discussion of strategies against CFC would be a thread jack. Whatever we build now will be used against CFC. Any military unit we build for now will be useful against the catchers, thats a given, including cats and galleys. What is important IMHO is to scheme long term. What willl be most effective against pikes and riders and terrrain of CFC?

To keep the discussions separate would be a mistake, IMHO.

	30-09-2003 02:19									#34
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Knights are simply too good to ignore. We'll have the time, resources and capability to produce droves of them. If we ever attack CFC it will be a blitzkrieg like no other.

	30-09-2003 02:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Knights are simply too good to ignore. We'll have the time, resources and capability to produce droves of them. If we ever attack CFC it will be a blitzkrieg like no other.

They are. But what I meant in my earlier thread is that, while I'm all for building horsies for upgrade, to win THIS war we need MI's. A few horsemen will help a lot, but they're not going to win the war for us. And knights aren't going to come along most likely until after the war is over or close to it.

If we get a little farther into this war and we find out our current force of MI's is plenty then building for a future knight army is great. But I don't think GCA is going to roll over and just die. So we'll need more MI's!

	30-09-2003 03:00									#36
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Honestly, I think until the fall of Catchopolis we should never let our MI force drop below 25ish (maybe even 30).

After that, I think we should start planning primarily for the future, and then knights in mass quantities is obviously the way to go. In the short term, 6 horses sounds like a good figure for a mobile hit squad to me as well. We won't need anymore than that at a time against GCA.

	30-09-2003 03:01									#37
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Our Primary streingth in this war is our NM's, as They will protect our MI's from feirce counterattacks. We need more of them to bouster our Offensive forces. With enough NM's, their counterattacks, which have been their main streingth will be broken.

E_T

	30-09-2003 03:03									#38
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I like the idea of picking a number for MIs and trying to maintain that as the war goes on, while increasing the proportion of other troops. That sounds like a smart way of everyone getting what they want... if we lose too many MIs we build replacements. If we max out our MI count then we focus on other things.

	30-09-2003 03:17									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I like the idea of picking a number for MIs and trying to maintain that as the war goes on, while increasing the proportion of other troops. That sounds like a smart way of everyone getting what they want... if we lose too many MIs we build replacements. If we max out our MI count then we focus on other things.

I can live with that! I was never trying to discount the importance of having horsemen for knight upgrades in the future. Just that horsemen aren't going to win this particular war for us. If we maintain a certain number of them (at least until we're nearing the end of the war), then that should work for all sides of this discussion.

	30-09-2003 03:18									#40
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Uhhhhhmmmmm, why is it being assumed that we will attack CFC after GCA?

As for myself, I think it may be a very large error to do so. The situation on the other continent is developing very well to favour 2 civs on this continent cooperating and getting to the space ship before the other guys get out of the industrial age.

	30-09-2003 03:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Uhhhhhmmmmm, why is it being assumed that we will attack CFC after GCA? As for myself, I think it may be a very large error to do so. The situation on the other continent is developing very well to favour 2 civs on this continent cooperating and getting to the space ship before the other guys get out of the industrial age.

At the moment I'm against attacking them too. But I think the others were just discussing it as a "what-if" scenario.

	30-09-2003 03:33									#42
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I'm not assuming we will attack them, I'm assuming we want to be ready in case we decide to attack them, or more likely they decide to attack us....thats not the same thing.

Personally, if we can avoid it and manage to take both choke points, then I'd be for a period of peace while we fully develop our half of our continent, but we can discuss that when the time comes.

Also the best way to avoid a war with them if we want to do so is to be sure that it is readily apparent that we can crush them if we want.

	30-09-2003 03:33									#43
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Yes, but... the arguments for more and more MIs often involve their usefullness in attacking CFC. If we do not attack CFC, we flush a large number of shields, and much coin down the drain.

That is why I strongly agree with Dominae's proposal to hold our horses and see how things go. We should adjust as the situation warrants.

For instance, in the unlikely event that GCA delivers up their army to quick destruction by the existing MIs, then we should switch to infrastructure and infantry. Then we could plan what we want to do next, and build more army after the libs and market places are in place to propel us through the middle ages.

However, if...

and so on.

	30-09-2003 03:37									#44
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I was reading this thread and wanted to post what nye said when I was aboout half way through it. Then I got to nye's posts here and he says it!

Having a partner will be nice. Having a partner that does not have a chance to use his UU on us will be even better. We can take CFC our much later in the game; when Rider's have to take on Riflemen and Calvary!

	30-09-2003 03:44									#45
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Horse

Horse


At least ten. Imagine you are CGA and you see a stack of 10 horse sitting on a hill two tiles away from one city, two tiles from another hill (which could place the stack two tiles from your capital), and important road infrastructure all about. There is also a stack of MI one tile from a border city. You have 5 spear to defend with. WHAT DO YOU DEFEND? Defend the border city? Defend the second city? Protect the valuable road network? Defend the hill next to the capital? Or maybe attack the stack of horses to remove the threat?

	30-09-2003 03:47									#46
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I didn't start this thread to set our production targets for the whole war, just to give us (the Consuls) a feel of what to ask E_T to factor into his spreadsheets NOW, and give Trip some idea of when and how many reinforcements will be arriving. If we were aiming for an all-Horseman army, then that is what we would need to change our cities to by turn 123 at the absolute latest. What I understand from the thread to date is that we will ensure our cities are building 1:1 Horses:MIs for the first build in each. We have plenty of time to discuss what to do in 5+ turns, but not so much time to decide what to build right now.

It would be a grave error to do exactly what I posted before throughout the war - partly because I was so vague. We will doubtless revise what we want, but the build schedules for right now will be about 1:1. Is this acceptable?

	30-09-2003 03:49									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I didn't start this thread to set our production targets for the whole war, just to give us (the Consuls) a feel of what to ask E_T to factor into his spreadsheets NOW, and give Trip some idea of when and how many reinforcements will be arriving. If we were aiming for an all-Horseman army, then that is what we would need to change our cities to by turn 123 at the absolute latest. What I understand from the thread to date is that we will ensure our cities are building 1:1 Horses:MIs for the first build in each. We have plenty of time to discuss what to do in 5+ turns, but not so much time to decide what to build right now. It would be a grave error to do exactly what I posted before throughout the war - partly because I was so vague. We will doubtless revise what we want, but the build schedules for right now will be about 1:1. Is this acceptable?

Short answer...Yes.

	30-09-2003 06:43									#48
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I don't think we're committed to fighting CFC yet, NYE. Rather, it's that we're preparing under the assumption that war with CFC is a possibility and we should what is necessary now to build a force capable of such a war, should it ever be needed. If we decide, for sure, later that we will not be fighting CFC, then we no longer need to prepare.

That said, I'd rather properly prepare and then decide not to than not prepare and then decide to go with it.

	30-09-2003 08:40									#49
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Wow how many of me are there. Seem to be a lot of NM's . Didn't really know I had around 40 twins

	30-09-2003 16:21									#50
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If GCA is going to turtle as they indicated, then the value of catapoults just went up a few notches.

One problem: If they are replaying the save for optimal results, then sitting next to their cities with a big stack bombarding will probally make us suffer horrible attrition as they pick off exactly the amount of units they are capable of doing so with minimal losses each turn. If we are convinced they are doing so (and it will become more and more apparent as the war goes on), then we maybe best off to just mass a huge stack and rush/overwhlem each city quickly. Also pillaging roads leading to our army (catapoults) might help since it will prevent horses which attack us from retreating back to their cities.

	30-09-2003 17:05									#51
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It would take them a LOT of reloading to get all of the NMs in a stack killed without triggering our GA. IT is obviously because of such a thing they are turtling, where they will bunker down and wait for US to smash ourselves against THEM. To wipe out a whole stack they need at least as many units as in the stack itself, also. Once we reach Outpost we can combine the stacks, and with the extra NMs headed down now, we should have more of a force than ANY of their troops can hold off.

	30-09-2003 17:50									#52
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With them pulling a Trip manuver, we might want to build some settlers as well...

	30-09-2003 19:26									#53
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Settler construction has already been raised as a new priority when we last chatted with E_T last night.

As for other priorities, I've been harping on the need for more catapults for weeks and maybe I can get Trip to listen to raising the number now

As some of us warned was possible (though didn't entirely believe, to be honest), GCA took one look at our attack, realized they were doomed, and immediately had the wherewithall to turtle rather than stupidly attempt to fight on our terms.

Thankfully, we have the good fortune of using 4-attack medieval infantry against their 2-defense spearmen, but it's still going to be a problem, especially if they have ANY defensive catapults (which I doubt, but it's possible).

That said, the one sure way to beat someone who turtles is to bring along a high stack of catapults... just bombard each of their units down to 1-2 hp to give our MIs a far better chance to kill each one and survive the battle.

Cats are probably one of the most under-rated units in the entire game...

	30-09-2003 21:40									#54
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I agree with Arnelos in this that we need more Catapults. I hope they will not raise all their towns...

	30-09-2003 21:52									#55
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It will be interesting to see if they abandon the towns on the CFC side of the map. Has CFC started their pat of the war yet?

They might try a limited turtling, say retreating south to ?algalord? or catchopolis (I can't think of the geography right now) while pushing back west against CFC. Do they have enough time to kill CFC and bring their army back to face us, or send it north to Equilibrium? Doubtful. My guess would be that they are rushing their sword army home and will try to take our stacks out asap, otherwise all is lost for them.

	30-09-2003 22:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel It will be interesting to see if they abandon the towns on the CFC side of the map. Has CFC started their pat of the war yet?

I recall hearing in chat last night that CFC has launched a grand attack stack of 1 pike and 2 MIs.

	30-09-2003 22:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As for other priorities, I've been harping on the need for more catapults for weeks and maybe I can get Trip to listen to raising the number now

It's not up to me what to build, just how to use what we build.

But yes, Catapults will be very important. We're lucky we have some already, they should come in handy as we bash our way south.

	30-09-2003 22:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I recall hearing in chat last night that CFC has launched a grand attack stack of 1 pike and 2 MIs.

That's correct. They're moving towards Soda, which has 2 GCA Horses nearby, IIRC.

	01-10-2003 02:33									#59
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GCA might as well be offering to surrender now; if they really do turtle down into two cities, I say we leave them be until we're ready to actually settle in the borders next to those towns- they'll do something stupid out of boredom long before then. If not, then their 12 or so units can deal with whatever we have (knights, cavalry and cannons maybe?) by that point.

Given that they ARE turtling, I strongly advocate the building of horsemen with an eye to knight/cavalry upgrades - we don't NEED to kill them quickly if they turtle; we can take all the time we want. Since when should we fear ANY two-city empire? :P

Time to change my sig file....

	01-10-2003 02:38									#60
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We don't know if they're turtling yet. All we know is that they're conducting a withdrawl, which is a very wise thing to do in the face of such a large advancing army. Cut roads, deny the enemy anything which might help him, muster an army and attack when the odds aren't so disproportionately against you.