01-10-2003 18:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit (Unless the CIA decides to do its own "investigation"...)

They are. This is obviously of great concern to them.

	01-10-2003 19:02									#62
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Was the woman an undercover agent or not? Thier seems to be a lot of confusion over this fact.

	01-10-2003 19:03									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sava My little crack about selling your soul comes from my perhaps misguided impression that you aren't being critical of this administration. As a libertarian, I would expect you to be critical of an administration who's actions defy the principles of your political ideology. If I am mistaken in some way, I apologize. I just call it like I see it.

One, I'm not a nut -- er, I mean, libertarian.

Two, yes, I am very much critical of Bush's administration -- they are trying so hard to find a justification for why we went into Iraq, that Bush got his panty hoses all twisted.

I am still hoping that the common Iraqis will eventually have an improved quality of life, though as a result of this -- it's just that I think the Bush administration invaded for the wrong reason, instead of the right reason.

	01-10-2003 19:03									#64
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Looks like Agee is going to have to sue some more people for repeating the tired lie that he outted agents. He's already forced Barbara Bush to remove that lie from her memiors. You'd think a former First lady whose husband was also former head of CIA would be able to substantiate such a charge, but she couldn't. So let's leave Agee out of this. (And besides, after they tried to kill him, I think he'd have had a right to name some names if he did do so.)

As for Caligastia's post, it is contradicted by the former agent they had on PBS lasted, whom Murdoch quoted.

	01-10-2003 19:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Was the woman an undercover agent or not? Thier seems to be a lot of confusion over this fact.

According to the ex-CIA guy on PBS last night, she was, but even if she wasn't, it's besides the point. Analysts sometimes become field agents and some analysts are former field agents. Her ability to do anything else now is compromised, and anyone she met with anywhere in the world is comprimsed, even if it was innocent.

	01-10-2003 19:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They are. This is obviously of great concern to them.

This is nothing unusual. The CIA is naturally obsessive about privacy, and every time the CIA feels that information about one of their employees or operations has been leaked improperly they ask for an investigation, and that request is almost always granted. There are about 50 such investigations a year, so the fact that there's an investigation is no huge news.

	01-10-2003 19:08									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Was the woman an undercover agent or not? Thier seems to be a lot of confusion over this fact.

There is no evidence that she was.

	01-10-2003 19:09									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As for Caligastia's post, it is contradicted by ...

Has there actually been an official confirmation of her status?

	01-10-2003 19:11									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the ex-CIA guy on PBS last night, she was, but even if she wasn't, it's besides the point. Analysts sometimes become field agents and some analysts are former field agents. Her ability to do anything else now is compromised, and anyone she met with anywhere in the world is comprimsed, even if it was innocent.

Her ability to do anything else has been compromised by the hyping of this nothing story.

	01-10-2003 19:13									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Has there actually been an official confirmation of her status?

I doubt there will be. The CIA is kinda cagey about such things.

	01-10-2003 19:16									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Her ability to do anything else has been compromised by the hyping of this nothing story.

It's not a nothing story. It's yet another example of this Administration punishing those who contradcit its lies (for example the scientist who had been putting up maps of caribu migration). This is an attempt to silence people in the Administration (esp. intelligence) who either disagree with or can contradict "the official story."

	01-10-2003 19:20									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not a nothing story. It's yet another example of this Administration punishing those who contradcit its lies (for example the scientist who had been putting up maps of caribu migration). This is an attempt to silence people in the Administration (esp. intelligence) who either disagree with or can contradict "the official story."

It's a nothing story because there is no evidence whatsoever that Plame was an agent or working undercover for the CIA. Simple as that.

	01-10-2003 20:22									#73
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quote: There is no evidence that she was.

Of course there's no evidence she was undercover. It's the CIA!

One of the better points I've heard is that real analysts and non-covert members of the CIA will often openly divulge the fact that they work for the CIA, so that those who actually DO have to lie or dodge questions about their employer CAN.

	01-10-2003 20:23									#74
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quote: It's a nothing story because there is no evidence whatsoever that Plame was an agent or working undercover for the CIA. Simple as that.

Most right-wingers are still in this early stage, Denial, about the impending demise of the Bush gang. Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance are still some ways off.

The CIA requested that the DOJ investigate, on September 26. Langley takes this very seriously. Novak's column was more two months ago, and yet the White House has done nothing.

You don't diss the CIA, not like that. Not unless you know what you're doing and why (like William Blum, for instance). When it comes to politics, Karl Rove might believe his own bull****, but wrt intelligence, he's a hick.

George Tenet was fine with taking the blame for the State of the Union mix-up. That's just one of the things you have to do sometimes, take one for the team. Nobody believed him anyway.

But he didn't expect to be thanked for that by having one of his people outed, and then for Bush to forget all about it. Well, Bush and the press might have forgotten about it, but the CIA hasn't. That's being treated contemptuously, and publicly so.

Bush might think that because his Daddy used to run the place, he can treat them like the landscape crew at Crawford. ("Hey, ah-meego, compren-doh?") Bad plan.

	01-10-2003 20:36									#75
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quote: Was the woman an undercover agent or not? Thier seems to be a lot of confusion over this fact.

Yes, there is a lot of confusion over this. This is the rhetorical battleground that Novak set up. Like any large organization, there are quite a few job descriptions in the CIA. How you interpret these descriptions is the difference between "treason" and "no big deal". And they probably won't go into any great deal describing this to us.

Anyway, I agree that Wilson should have kept his nose out of the politics. The Administration can hit back, of course, but has to be careful about how they do it.

	01-10-2003 20:39									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Anyway, I agree that Wilson should have kept his nose out of the politics.

Why should he have? Proof that the President was lying is of great national importance. What I wanna know is why he didn't come forward in January or February or March?

	01-10-2003 20:44									#77
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quote: Why should he have? Proof that the President was lying is of great national importance.

Because we can't have the CIA involved in politics, now can we?

	01-10-2003 20:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Because we can't have the CIA involved in politics, now can we?

Yes, but Wilson isn't in the CIA.

	01-10-2003 21:03									#79
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Well, then the link between husband and wife is fair game for the Administration. You have to avoid political freelancers around the CIA at all costs. Unless you're OK with living in a state run by the intelligence agencies...

	01-10-2003 21:08									#80
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It's not fair game because it was against the law and it wasn't really aimed at Wilson but at other people who might know things.

	01-10-2003 21:11									#81
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Most right-wingers are still in this early stage, Denial, about the impending demise of the Bush gang. Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance are still some ways off.

Nothing will come of this because there is nothing to it. Enjoy your fantasy world while it lasts.

	01-10-2003 21:12									#82
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Nothing will come of it because there is little likelihood that the people who did this will be uncovered.

	01-10-2003 21:18									#83
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quote: It's not fair game because it was against the law and it wasn't really aimed at Wilson but at other people who might know things.

I don't even agree that Wilson should have talked in the first place, so I don't think the relationship is fair game. But if you agree that he should talk, then the Administration has to be able to defend itself with relevant information, at the very least.

	01-10-2003 21:18									#84
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The fact that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA is more or less a non-issue in terms of the Yellowcake story. The White House did this to intimidate Wilson because he and the Yellowcake issue were the biggest political threat this administration has faced. Whether this action was meant to intimidate people beyond Wilson and his wife is a matter of perspective.

Wilson isn't CIA -- he worked for the State Department. He blew the whistle and the White House reacted by trying to discredit and intimidate him, but they went too far (intentionally or not).

	01-10-2003 21:21									#85
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rev: Wilson was "hired" for this job by the intelligence community, so it doesn't make any real difference whether he was CIA or not.

	01-10-2003 21:22									#86
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How, pray-tell, is the fact that Wilson's wife is undercover CIA relevant? Sure, she may have helped get him into the vetting process for a candidate to investigate the story, but it's not as if the man was without his merits -- he worked under Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and George W. Bush and was the U.S. ambassador to Iraq.

	01-10-2003 21:22									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DanS But if you agree that he should talk, then the Administration has to be able to defend itself with relevant information, at the very least.

(emphasis added)

How is his wife's status in the CIA relevent?

(I'll conceed on the point that he was working for the CIA, and we don't want them involved in our politics).

	01-10-2003 21:23									#88
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And the mission itself originated at the direction of VP Cheney's office.

	01-10-2003 21:26									#89
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quote: Sure, she may have helped get him into the vetting process for a candidate to investigate the story, but it's not as if the man was without his merits

But we know how it turned out. There's no way of knowing whether this was a political hit job. That's the problem.

	01-10-2003 21:30									#90
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Regardless of intent, a crime was still committed.