01-10-2003 21:53									#91
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I don't know if it was, but if it was, then it ought to be punished.

	01-10-2003 23:03									#92
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There is about a one in a million chance that the person who leaked this will be caught by those investigating. The best that they'll do is point a finger in the general direction of someone who had the right clearences/contacts to know that Wilson's wife was a covert CIA Agent.

Expect the media frenzy to last another week and a half and it will probably die down, baring an informer coming forward. People will try to turn this into Yellowcakegate II and will be frustrated again.

	01-10-2003 23:17									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the ex-CIA guy on PBS last night, she was, but even if she wasn't, it's besides the point. Analysts sometimes become field agents and some analysts are former field agents. Her ability to do anything else now is compromised, and anyone she met with anywhere in the world is comprimsed, even if it was innocent.

This is true. I personally know people who've made that transfer from one to the other, since then retired and able to at least mention that they did.

	01-10-2003 23:20									#94
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not a nothing story. It's yet another example of this Administration punishing those who contradcit its lies (for example the scientist who had been putting up maps of caribu migration). This is an attempt to silence people in the Administration (esp. intelligence) who either disagree with or can contradict "the official story."

It should be noted that while her status was certainly revealed, there is absoultely no compelling evidence whatsoever that the Bush Administration was either purposely behind it or that there was any malicious intent by whoever was responsible (incompetence is as often the reason for stupidity like this as malice or corruption).

Jumping to the conclusion that the Bush Admin. must be behind it is extremely specious.

	01-10-2003 23:22									#95
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Most right-wingers are still in this early stage, Denial, about the impending demise of the Bush gang. Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance are still some ways off. The CIA requested that the DOJ investigate, on September 26. Langley takes this very seriously. Novak's column was more two months ago, and yet the White House has done nothing. You don't diss the CIA, not like that. Not unless you know what you're doing and why (like William Blum, for instance). When it comes to politics, Karl Rove might believe his own bull****, but wrt intelligence, he's a hick. George Tenet was fine with taking the blame for the State of the Union mix-up. That's just one of the things you have to do sometimes, take one for the team. Nobody believed him anyway. But he didn't expect to be thanked for that by having one of his people outed, and then for Bush to forget all about it. Well, Bush and the press might have forgotten about it, but the CIA hasn't. That's being treated contemptuously, and publicly so. Bush might think that because his Daddy used to run the place, he can treat them like the landscape crew at Crawford. ("Hey, ah-meego, compren-doh?") Bad plan.

Some of you have such a completely warped view of reality that it's truly fascinating...

	01-10-2003 23:27									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Jumping to the conclusion that the Bush Admin. must be behind it is extremely specious.

I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I'm just following along. The Post said it, and Wilson pointed directly at Rove, though he's since backed off.

	02-10-2003 00:49									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia There is no evidence that she was.

This is essentially flagrantly wrong. She may currently be an analyst, but essentially all the news sources are reporting that she at least was an operative in the past, and her identity was classified to protect her contacts.

quote: Plame currently is an analyst at the CIA. But, intelligence officials said, she previously served overseas in a clandestine capacity, which means her name is kept classified to protect her previous contacts and operations, and her ability to work again undercover overseas.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...003Sep30_2.html

	02-10-2003 00:49									#98
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Several of the six remaining reporters have reportedly been saying Rove is one of the two. Rove has a history of jumping the gun and anonymously pushing questionable stories in times of trouble -- he got fired from Bush Sr.'s campaign for doing it.

Keep in mind that this leak also came during a short period of time in which the White House leaked several other ridiculous smears -- including telling reporters (and Drudge) that a reporter who wrote a damaging article about the White House was a "gay Canadian".

Let's face it -- whoever leaked this information didn't want their names on it for some reason: either they knew it was illegal or it was intended as a smear.

	02-10-2003 00:53									#99
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So does anyone know this CIA dudes name?

	02-10-2003 01:12									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch This is essentially flagrantly wrong. She may currently be an analyst, but essentially all the news sources are reporting that she at least was an operative in the past, and her identity was classified to protect her contacts.

I actually meant "was" to mean just before this story got big - i.e. in the last couple of days. If she was an operative a while back, then it just makes the people hyping this story even bigger idiots because they are the ones who have ensured that she will not be able to serve in this capacity at any point in the future.

	02-10-2003 01:23									#101
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AFAIK, the facts are that Novak was calling sources in the admin to find out why Wilson, a Clinton admin official, was used in Niger. The response was that his wife, a CIA analyst, suggested his name. Novak apparently confirmed this from the CIA who gave him her name and did not ask him not to publish the name.

Apparently, she was a covert agent in the past and her name was classified. Thus noone should have identified her as a CIA employee, let alone released her name. The people responsible are at least guilty of stupidity, or worse, and should be fired.

Now, Wilson, has identified Rove as the source of the leak and that Rove leaked it intentionally to smear Wilson. Of course, such an intentional leak is a crime. This clearly then is actionable defamation if Rove turns out not to be guilty.

I don't know where this is all leading, but I suspect either Rove or Wilson are in a heap of trouble, depending.

	02-10-2003 01:25									#102
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There was once a country named Lossiya. There was a revolution in Lossiya and it became Rovietskii Royuz.
Whenever a politician made the leaders of the Rovietskii Royuz mad, he would either die or his career be ruined.

Then, the plague jumped across the Bering Straight.....

	02-10-2003 01:48									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I actually meant "was" to mean just before this story got big - i.e. in the last couple of days. If she was an operative a while back, then it just makes the people hyping this story even bigger idiots because they are the ones who have ensured that she will not be able to serve in this capacity at any point in the future.

Frankly that's only assuming you're talking about countries with incompetent intel agencies and is a fairly weak argument. Once a single article is widely available to the public, intelligence agencies throughout the world certainly should take not of that fact and her name. Even without the current publicity, the fact she had been identified in the past makes it too risky to send her anywhere since other potential candidates have not been public identified as opperatives in the past. I'm a little flabergasted at how you're trying to bash people who consider this situation serious and publicize it, rather than aknowledging its a serious issue where whoever is the guilty party should be punished. Incidentally, the CIA has to worry about the fact that if people do this and don't get in trouble for it, more agents could be compromised in the future.

Edit, in fact CIA officials are saying it doesn't matter if the case is publicized more now since her identity has already been comprimised.

quote: Why is the Washington Post publishing Plame's name? An intelligence official told The Post on Sept. 27 that no further harm would come from repeating Plame's name.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...003Sep30_2.html

	02-10-2003 01:55									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Frankly that's only assuming you're talking about countries with incompetent intel agencies and is a fairly weak argument. Once a single article is widely available to the public, intelligence agencies throughout the world certainly should take not of that fact and her name. Even without the current publicity, the fact she had been identified in the past makes it too risky to send her anywhere since other potential candidates have not been public identified as opperatives in the past. I'm a little flabergasted at how you're trying to bash people who consider this situation serious and publicize it, rather than aknowledging its a serious issue where whoever is the guilty party should be punished. Incidentally, the CIA has to worry about the fact that if people do this and don't get in trouble for it, more agents could be compromised in the future.

There's nothing wrong with worrying about compromised security and publicizing it, the people I'm bashing are the ones who automatically blame Bush. It's mainly Democrats who are hyping this because they want to smear Bush.

	02-10-2003 02:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I actually meant "was" to mean just before this story got big - i.e. in the last couple of days. If she was an operative a while back, then it just makes the people hyping this story even bigger idiots because they are the ones who have ensured that she will not be able to serve in this capacity at any point in the future.

You were clearly trying to suggest she was an analyst before and no real crime was commited, and unless you go back and edit all your previous posts in this thread, anyone can see that. Nice try.

	02-10-2003 02:13									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Frankly that's only assuming you're talking about countries with incompetent intel agencies

We are talking about the George Tenet's CIA, correct?

	02-10-2003 02:19									#107
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The CIA, despite how politicians would like to protray it, is not incompetent.

	02-10-2003 02:22									#108
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We are talking about the George Tenet's CIA, correct?

No we're talking about the intel agencies of foreign countries so your point doesn't apply.

	02-10-2003 02:23									#109
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Just goes to show that the administration is only interested in pushing their own agenda, regardless of the consequences. I sure hope the selfinterest results in one knowledgable conspirator outing many of Bush's "secrets". There have been plenty discussed at 'Poly and over the net, it would be nice to get them in the "Corporate Media", err I mean the "Legitimate Media".

	02-10-2003 02:25									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The CIA, despite how politicians would like to protray it,

I'm not even going by what politicians say. Just by thier very public failiures ranging back to at least the nuke tests by India.

	02-10-2003 02:29									#111
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Just by thier very public failiures ranging back to at least the nuke tests by India.

I think that has more to do with who makes the decisions, given that they get conflicting reports. The fact that a certain course of action is more likely doesn't mean it's what will happen.

Don't get me wrong, I think they've done some really evil ****, and some really stupid boneheaded things.

	02-10-2003 03:36									#112
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Looks like the pressure's going up on Bush.

quote: Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe a special prosecutor should be named to investigate allegations that Bush administration officials illegally leaked the name of a covert CIA operative to journalists, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll... The results of The Post-ABC poll found a high degree of suspicion directed toward the administration over the allegations. Seventy-two percent thought it likely that someone in the White House leaked the operative's name. And, in what could be a politically significant finding, only 29 percent said the investigation should be handled by the Justice Department, while 69 percent favored a special counsel with autonomy from the administration... In addition, 56 percent of Republicans found it likely that White House officials leaked the name, and Republicans, by 52 percent to 42 percent, favored a special counsel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0-2003Oct1.html

	02-10-2003 03:39									#113
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Looks like some mud has finally stuck. Guess we're gonna have another war soon.

	02-10-2003 04:18									#114
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This has not become a major issue in the past week because of anything that Joe Wilson said. He's been saying the same things (more or less) since July.

And it certainly hasn't become an issue because of Democratic candidates hammering on the matter.

It became a major issue last week because George Tenet got fed up and decided to turn the matter over to a collection agency.

Look back in any news archive. How many were even aware of this story 2 weeks ago? It made the front pages when Tenet asked the Department of Justice to get involved last week.

Now, somewhow I doubt that Tenet just up and decided to do this after keeping silent for 2 months. How many calls to the WH has he made? How many requests for updates? Has he been repeatedly told, "Oh, we're looking into it, George, honest"?

At the very least, the Bush WH (the Mayberry Macchiavellis, in John DiIulio's words) did not regard:

• the exposure of an intelligence person,
  
  
• for partisan reasons,
  
  
• presumably by someone highly placed in the administration
  

	02-10-2003 04:21									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It's mainly Democrats who are hyping this because they want to smear Bush.

At least in general it appears that plenty of Republicans feel this is a big deal too.

quote: The view that this is a serious matter transcended party lines. Seventy-two percent of Republicans and 83 percent of independents joined the 90 percent of Democrats who said it was at least somewhat serious. In addition, 56 percent of Republicans found it likely that White House officials leaked the name, and Republicans, by 52 percent to 42 percent, favored a special counsel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0-2003Oct1.html

	02-10-2003 05:54									#116
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There are plenty better impeachable offences Shrub ought to be hammered for, but this'll do.

	02-10-2003 06:54									#117
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Ned -

quote: the facts are that Novak was calling sources in the admin to find out why Wilson, a Clinton admin official, was used in Niger. The response was that his wife, a CIA analyst, suggested his name. Novak apparently confirmed this from the CIA who gave him her name and did not ask him not to publish the name.

According to Novak, the CIA did ask him not to publish her name but that no harm would come of it if he did (rather strange in itself). But there were a total of ~6 reporters told her name. So, did all these reporters call people in the administration to find out why Wilson was named to head the investigation in Niger and they all got the same response? It's certainly possible. But did someone in the administration call these other reporters first? I've heard they were called by someone in the administration, not that they called asking for information as to why Wilson was sent. Of course, maybe once the explanation was given to Novak, other reporters were called for some reason.

When I thought through Novak's explanation, it did sound like someone just messed up and gave him the name as part of their response to his question. His version does sound innocent enough inspite of all the hoopla. And if Novak was told by the CIA using her name would cause no harm, it's possible the administration contact had the same information - that revealing her name wouldn't compromise anything. The only kink in the armor I can see at this point is why other reporters were called and given her name, it sounds like someone wanted the name made public. Perhaps it's just favorable payback to reporters in the good graces of the administration, perhaps there was some nefarious reason. But does anyone really think George W Bush thought up this plan to get Wilson?

Fool me once... ...shame on...you. Fool me twice... ... ... ... won't get fooled again.

Btw, it will be interesting to see how Bob "law and order" Novak
deals with this; he knows who gave him the name. And if this is a crime, he knows the criminal.

	02-10-2003 07:52									#118
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quote: Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe a special prosecutor should be named ...

Out of curiosity on what basis would a special prosecutor be named now that the independent council law has expired?

quote: Btw, it will be interesting to see how Bob "law and order" Novak deals with this;

He's "hiding" behind the 1st amendment.

	02-10-2003 08:37									#119
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I keep flashing back to the campaign trail days when Bush was pledging again and again ad nauseum that he was going to bring "integrity" to the White House. Bringing Rove (not to mention Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, et al) to the White House was a helluva strange way to bring "integrity" to it.

I don't hold Bush personally responsible for this, any more than I would hold a small child responsible for committing a crime.

Last edited by mindseye on 02-10-2003 at 08:56

	02-10-2003 08:39									#120
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A post that needs repeating:

quote: Originally posted by Rev Several of the six remaining reporters have reportedly been saying Rove is one of the two. Rove has a history of jumping the gun and anonymously pushing questionable stories in times of trouble -- he got fired from Bush Sr.'s campaign for doing it. Keep in mind that this leak also came during a short period of time in which the White House leaked several other ridiculous smears -- including telling reporters (and Drudge) that a reporter who wrote a damaging article about the White House was a "gay Canadian". Let's face it -- whoever leaked this information didn't want their names on it for some reason: either they knew it was illegal or it was intended as a smear.