30-09-2003 06:25									#1
	Discussion: Coups, etc Got spare money?

While discussing the basic government structure for the ACSPG, the subject of coups to remove people in power came up, but AFAIK, we enver agreed on a set of rules regarding them - and we should, as they would be a rather important element in Hive politics.

My own suggestion would be for the coup starter to announce their intentions in a thread (probably after extensive discussions with others), and state who theyw ere attempting to overthrow, and then others would post their support or opposition in that thread, with ordinary citizens having one 'vote' each, and those in positions of greater influence (Ministers - especially miltiary ones - Politburo members, etc) having more.

Thoughts? Comments? Flames? Better suggestions?

	30-09-2003 06:48									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maybe the Chairman General Secretary shouldn't be able to vote in the poll? However, he could influence his military, politburo, etc to vote for him.

	30-09-2003 06:49									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think the General Secretary should be allowed to take part just like anybody else - he might even be the one launching the coup, trying to take control of the Council of Ministers.

	30-09-2003 10:09									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Some ideas....

~All officials can be targeted by a coup. The Politurbo may be targetted only as a single whole, General Secretary and Chairman included, though both Chairman and General Secretary may be targetted indivdually

~Public Vote. Rather than anonymous-response ones, people must publically voice their support for the leaders of the coup, or for the person under fire. Just to make people think before acting, and giving a chance to the leader who could be overthrown.

~Weighted vote. Some leaders simply have more political sway. For example, the General Secretary could have influence as the highest Hiverian power. The Secretary for Factional Defense would have the might of the military. The Science Dept. could use it's technological edge. The Secretary for Foreign Affairs could call in outside powers, and the First Secretaries of the various Republics could use local support of their respective districts. The Secretary for Economic Policies could divert energy toward his goal. The Chairman, as a powerful leader, has that advantage.
You get the point.

~Multiple targets. Various people on one side of an issue could try to take out people on the other side.

~Spoils of war. The sponser of the coup choses who gets to replace the oustered leader, assuming the coup is sucessful

~Public Shame. leaders of failed coup, due to the public outrage over the incident, are forced to leave all offices they hold (Politurbo included) for the remainder if the term. They may not hold office for the duration of the term. Members of the Politurbo who supported (not necessairly lead) the coup attempt will be forced from that council for the remainder of the term.

	30-09-2003 11:12									#5
	Put an end to popups!

How about we create an Orwellian-style database of all our citizens? Criminal records, etc etc....Some of which is public, some which may not be...

So then those who support a counter-revolutionary coup will be shamed forever.

	30-09-2003 11:13									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think it would be keen to have some sort of Mechanism that can cover things such as military combat, economic power and so on. Something like dice rolls or RNG.

	30-09-2003 11:27									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Dice rolls are probably best. best stick with a 50 base, and add or subtract values as needed. Of course, with a 1d100.

Anyway, I was thinking something like this:

NAME: Tassadar
AGE: 26
SEX: Male
WEIGHT: 125lbs
HEIGTH: 6'4

RESIDENCE: New Apolyton
CURRENT LOCATION: Tassagrad
POSITION: General Secretary
PREVIOUS POSITIONS: God
EDUCATION LEVEL: Talent, New Apolyton School of Science
Worker, Revolutionary School of Military Tactics
SPECIALIZATION: Scientist

MARITAL STATUS: Dating
(Classified) SIGNIFICANT FE/MALE: Claire Forlani < Link to Profile >

REVOLUTIONARY INVOLVEMENT: 2191 - Overthrew Government of Exampleperson
2185 - Sucessfully Defended against Politburo Attempt to Overthrow General Secretary
COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY INVOLVMENT: 2184 - Attempted to Overthrow Politburo
POLITICAL AFFILIATION: Communist Party of the Human Hive.
(Classified) TRUE POLITICAL AFFILIATION: Far-Left Wing
(Classified) THREAT LEVEL AGAINST CURRENT GOVERNMENT: 0

A lot more could be added to this list. Maybe even RPG elements. Who knows?

	30-09-2003 15:31									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hm, looks like a STASI file...

That reminds me... I have to look at my STASI file as long as they are still public IŽd love to see what they knew about me...

	30-09-2003 17:00									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was thinking before of creating some system where each official gets points for achievements he or she makes during his or her term. For example the S of Science and SE would get some points for each tech researched, the S of Fac Defense for each military unit built and battle won. On the other sides points could be lost by losing a battle or having a drone riot. The points would then go to the opposition.
These points could be used then to start a coup. Points could be appointed to a certain office. Who has the most points left in a certain office at the end of the coup becomes the new official.

Two major drawbacks:
1. It would be an administrative hell, keeping an account of what unit was built where under what official etc...
2. Officials will probably no longer be elected. Coups will decide everything. That could be better for Hive RP sphere, but some people may not like that. It's a choice that has to be made.

	01-10-2003 04:50									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

1. Well, not really. I mean were probably not going to be a huge DG, so...
2. The Hiverian solution to everything: POLL IT!!!

	08-10-2003 13:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It would be nice if we could have some agreement on the mechanism for coups before it actually became an issue...

	09-10-2003 04:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here's a simplified proposal:

A person, the leader of the coup, would start a thread for the coup, calling for support, and specifically mentioning those leaders targetted by the coup attempt. For reasons of fairness, the General Secretary would be forbidden from touching that thread with his mod powers.

People start to throw their support for either the revolutionaries or the leaders under fire. This would all be done publically, so all would know how they voted.

the Weighting system, for reasons of simplicity, would be as follows:
General Secretary: +4 votes
Chairman, members of the Politurbo: +3 votes
Secretaries: +2 votes
Secretaries of the Republics: +1 vote

After a five day period, the votes would all be tallied. Simple Majority, with all ties being thrown in favor the the targetted leader(s).

If the attempt is sucessful, the targetted leader(s) is removed from office immeadiately. The leader of the coup (thread starter) picks a new person to fill the post (self-appointment allowed).

If the attempt fails, the leader of the coup (thread starter) is removed from all positions he may hold, and is forbidden from holding any type of position for the rest of the term, as well as the following ones.

Thoughts?

	09-10-2003 12:30									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think forbidding the leaders of failed coup attempts from holding positions permanently is a bit harsh. Allow the General Secretary (or a majority of Politburo members, perhaps) to place a ban on their holding positions if they want to, but also allow for the ban to be lifted if the General Secretary or Politburo changes it's mind or is replaced.

	09-10-2003 16:17									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Re the point scheme: It would be too easy to build up points during the early years when for example discovering tech is relatively fast.

I think a version of Octavians proposal is better.

Non office holders 1 vote
Secretaries of republics 2 votes
Secretaries 3 votes
Members of Politburo 3 votes
Chairman 4 votes
General Secretary 4 votes

This narrows the range among office holders and it should be one person one declaration. That is a secretary who is also a secretary of a republic does not get 5 votes just 3.

Also I don't think you should be able to split your vote 2 for 1 candidate and 1 for another for example if you are entitled to 3 votes.

	09-10-2003 17:47									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree with Herc, although I think people with multiple positions should be allowed to vote with the full compliment of votes. If someone has 2 positions, they have exactly the same power as 2 people holding those 2 positions, and control the same number of employees and workers as 2 people holding those positions, so to be only given the votes for one of them seems wrong to me.

I agree with Octavian that those who fail in a coup should have their positions stripped until the next elections. However, this makes it very easy, too easy indeed, to dipose a leader, therefore I think you should get 2 extra points if you hold the positions being contended. I think the votes should eb as follows too:
Citizens - 1
Secretaries of Republics - 2
Secretaries - 3
Politburo Members - 3
Chairman - 4
General Secretary - 5

With 2 extra points for the person that holds the position being contended (they will have extra influence over that department, being that they legitimately control the defenses and employees of that department) and if you hold 2 positions, you get the votes for both (since you control the defenses and employees of both of those departments, and you have the same influence as 2 people who hold those 2 positions). Split votes are not allowed.

How does that sound?

	10-10-2003 01:46									#16
	Support Apolyton

That sounds good.

I also agree with GT, in that the ban on positons for a failed coup leader can be lifted by a vote of the Politburo vote.

	10-10-2003 03:18									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

However, since there are unlikely to be any positions available between the time of the coup and the next election there seems to be little point in having it lifted.

	10-10-2003 06:07									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We shall see. One would be surprised at how suddenly vacancies can arise

	13-10-2003 04:15									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have two questions about Drogue's proposal:

Do the General Secretary and Chairman also get 3 votes for being in the Politburo besides their usual 5 and 4 votes? I certainly hope so, as otherwise it would be possible for an official to accumulate 8 votes (three union secretary, three politburo and two republican secretary) while the GS would only have five. We can't have that, can we! Under that system I would also forbid the Chairman to be First Secretary of a Union Republic for the same reason.

Also, how would elections be dealt with in such a coup system? Wouldn't there be any elections at all anymore, would elections for all offices be done at the end of each month (even if a coup just happened three days ago) or would it be that elections for an office are held whenever the same official holds the office for thirty consecutive days (In time this would result in elections spread over the entire month) ?

	13-10-2003 05:37									#20
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, I'd forbid cummulative votes that result from being on the Politurbo. The Secretaries, GS, and Chairman would all get their regular vote amounts from those postions. Secretaries of the Republics who also happen to be Politurbo members would get three votes, instead of their normal two.

	13-10-2003 07:40									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Do the General Secretary and Chairman also get 3 votes for being in the Politburo besides their usual 5 and 4 votes? I certainly hope so, as otherwise it would be possible for an official to accumulate 8 votes (three union secretary, three politburo and two republican secretary) while the GS would only have five. We can't have that, can we! Under that system I would also forbid the Chairman to be First Secretary of a Union Republic for the same reason.

Yes. You get the amount for each position you hold. I would also support having the Chairman unable to be a First Secretary. You have the power of all those positions, exactly the same as if multiple people held those positions. Therefore you should have all those votes.

Therefore the most anyone can get is 10 (8 as you pointed out, or for being the GS, and 2 for it being your current position that is being contested).

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Also, how would elections be dealt with in such a coup system? Wouldn't there be any elections at all anymore, would elections for all offices be done at the end of each month (even if a coup just happened three days ago) or would it be that elections for an office are held whenever the same official holds the office for thirty consecutive days (In time this would result in elections spread over the entire month) ?

I would say forget the elections. This is the Hive. We run Police State, not democracy. Elections to start with, but from now on, coups should be the way

	15-10-2003 15:16									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

So... does anyone have any objections to Drogue's proposal, or should it be put to a poll so that we can finally have a working system?

	15-10-2003 18:57									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It looks good but I think the system should be subject to the possibility of a two thirds majority constitutional review if it proves impossible in practice to achieve a coup. But not before MY2140.

	15-10-2003 23:03									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Seems like a decent system to divide the gov positions.

	16-10-2003 03:28									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Hercules It looks good but I think the system should be subject to the possibility of a two thirds majority constitutional review if it proves impossible in practice to achieve a coup. But not before MY2140.

I don't see why it would prove impossible; you just have to persuade enough powerful people to support you. And that's as it should be.

	16-10-2003 05:09									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think we can just change the system by vote as needed. I really don't think we should be adding stuff to the constitution about overthrowing those in power...

	16-10-2003 05:49									#27
	Put an end to popups!

I would like to propose that we can only have one coup attempt on one position at a time, and only one coup attempt per position in five years. It seems to me that multiple attempts are currently possible, and the shear logistics of such a monstrosity are murdurous to even think about.
Also, the five year rule would mean that if someone is successful in a coup, they do at least get some time to enjoy it!

Just my thoughts

C

	16-10-2003 06:31									#28
	Suffering from ads?

Do we still have elections? Or should we just have coups? If we only have coups, how long from when you launch one can you launch the next?

My opinions: I would say if you fail you should have your positions stripped (and given to the person you tried to overthrow, to choose who gets it) and be banned from trying another coup for 2 weeks. Or we could do it realistically and have no time limit, therefore you can launch another the next day if you wish. Since you could in RL. However if you launch too many, people will just vote for the other person as they are obviously power-hungry. If a member wished to resign, they can gift the position to whomever they want.

Chaunk: We cannot do it in 5 years, since we play 7 years per turnchat, if we do it like lasttime. I think it's best to do it as a time in RL, such as a week, or two weeks.

	16-10-2003 08:44									#29
	Support Apolyton

I think anyone should be allowed to coup at anytime (though obvoiusly if you failed the first time, trying it again two minutes later will fail).

Failure results in punishment by whomever they tried to coup.

	16-10-2003 09:19									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Punishment? What sort?