Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > How Stupid IS Ashcroft?!?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread    < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
Question  Old Post 30-09-2003 19:33 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
How Stupid IS Ashcroft?!? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Punishment issue splits Ashcroft, judges

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Gina Holland

Sept. 29, 2003 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- A debate over appropriate punishments for federal crimes and how cases should be pursued by prosecutors has made unlikely foes of conservative judges and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

When similar cases are handled differently a drug peddler in San Diego might get 12 months in jail while one in Texas is sent away for six years. Ashcroft says he wants more uniformity, but judges say his ideas for achieving that will harm a system already struggling with more cases than it can handle.

It's turning into a particularly contentious chapter in the long-running dispute over sentencing.

Last week, federal judges urged repeal of a law that was sought by Ashcroft earlier this year making it more difficult for them to impose lighter sentences than specified in guidelines approved by Congress more than 15 years ago.

The Judicial Conference of the United States, headed by conservative Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, voted unanimously to support overturning the law, which also requires reports to Congress on any judge who departs from the sentencing guidelines. Rehnquist had complained about the law when it was passed.

In another development last week, Ashcroft limited the freedom of prosecutors to strike plea bargains in criminal cases. He said that U.S. attorneys must seek the toughest punishment possible in nearly all cases, using plea bargains only in special situations.

Now, fewer than 5 percent of federal cases go to trial.

"If there were no guilty pleas, the courts could work 365 days a year, 24 hours a day and not try all the cases," said senior U.S. District Judge Neal Biggers Jr. of Oxford, Miss., named to the bench in 1984 by President Reagan.

As for departing from the guidelines, judges are not giving out light sentences willy-nilly, Biggers said. It's prosecutors who request lighter sentences in plea bargains to reward cooperative defendants, he added.

Michael O'Neill, a member of the U.S. Sentencing Commission, applauds Ashcroft's goal but said judges have legitimate concerns about interference with their authority.

"You're seeing some push back by the judges, as they perceive things to be unfair," said O'Neill, whose commission periodically revises the guidelines.

A Justice Department spokeswoman said Monday the department does not generally respond to judges' comments.

In July, Ashcroft wrote in a memo that the Justice Department "has a solemn obligation to ensure that laws concerning criminal sentencing are faithfully, fairly and consistently enforced."

The guidelines set out a range of possible prison terms, usually leading to sentences much shorter than the maximum a defendant could have received. In addition, for some crimes Congress has established minimum prison sentences, known as mandatory minimums. For example, someone who uses a gun in their crime or is caught with a certain amount of a drug faces a minimum amount of time in prison.

Mandatory minimum sentences have especially angered some judges.

Supreme Court Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, a moderate conservative named to the bench by Reagan, told lawyers in August that mandatory minimum sentences should be abolished and the guidelines should be revised downward.

"Our resources are misspent, our punishments too severe, our sentences too long," Kennedy said.

Kennedy's comments to the American Bar Association have spurred the nation's largest lawyers group to start its own strategy for changes. A commission will be formed in Kennedy's name and hopes to have recommendations by next summer.

Stephen Saltzburg, a criminal law professor at George Washington University who will head the group, said presidential candidates and Washington leaders are not embracing Kennedy's views.

"Law and order, tough on crime, tough on sentencing is still the popular way to go," he said. "It doesn't make it right."

Other judges are speaking out.

Justice Stephen Breyer recently echoed the criticism of mandatory minimum sentences. "There has to be room for the unusual or the exceptional case," Breyer said in a speech.

Earlier this year, a federal judge in New York quit over the latest clash between the judicial branch and Washington, citing in part the new law that limited judges' discretion in sentencing.

"Congress is mandating things simply because they want to show how tough they are on crime with no sense of whether this makes sense or is meaningful," U.S. District Judge John S. Martin, a former federal prosecutor, said after announcing his resignation in June.

In Wichita, Kan., criminal defense attorney Dan Monnat said judges may have some influence in persuading Congress to revise the guidelines. Judges have lifetime appointments, so they can be independent.

"The federal judges don't have to worry about looking soft on crime, but the politicians do," Monnat said.

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:31
  Old Post 30-09-2003 19:54 Visit MrFun's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

not again . . .

Attachment: beadotcommie.jpg
This has been downloaded 141 time(s).

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
  Old Post 30-09-2003 19:58 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Trying out for the Zylka replacetment, Iowa-boy?

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:31
  Old Post 30-09-2003 20:04 Visit MrFun's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Trying out for the Zylka replacetment, Iowa-boy?


Are you just ornery because no one has posted in here yet -- other than me?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
  Old Post 30-09-2003 20:09 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

If you'd actually read the article, you might not have posted that image.

Ashcroft is trying to force Federal judges to tend towards the maximum sentences (and any judge who gies a more lenient sentence has to report to Congress). Meanwhile, he's instructed Federal prosecutors to no longer accept plea bargins. THis meanss that the Federal courts will be clogged with a massive backlog. And it's not like the prisoners aren't already overcrowded.

Why don't you just go back to spewing your hate for Texas and stop pretending to be clever.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:31
  Old Post 30-09-2003 20:28
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

Actually Ashcroft's position here makes some sense. As I recall in recent years several liberal groups have attacked the death penalty claiming that Federal prosecutors in different jurisdictions seek different penalties, that means if you commit a murder in Texas they’ll likely hang you but if you commit it in New York you might get 8 years in prison while in California you might get life in prison, and that this could be seen as violating the equal protection clause of the constitution.

Most of the difference in sentencing can be attributed to different juries in different states have different opinions of what constitutes an appropriate punishment for a given offense. That means it will be near impossible to achieve the liberal goal of equal sentences for people who commit the similar crimes.

So any way, the liberals felt that in order to create a more equal system the Federal government should cap the maximum sentences so that juries in harsher districts would have to pass out lighter sentences like the softer jurisdictions do. Ashcroft has taken the opposite approach and has tried to create higher minimum sentences thus forcing the soft districts to hand out the tougher sentences which the harder districts prefer.

This thinking has now spread out from just capital cases and is now moving into many other sorts of crimes that the Feds prosecute.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 05:56 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

If Ashcroft wants to destroy lives by the million, it's not my problem. I'm Canadian.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 07:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Ashcroft

CygnusZ is offline CygnusZ
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 07:29 Visit CygnusZ's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Actually Ashcroft's position here makes some sense. As I recall in recent years several liberal groups have attacked the death penalty claiming that Federal prosecutors in different jurisdictions seek different penalties, that means if you commit a murder in Texas they’ll likely hang you but if you commit it in New York you might get 8 years in prison while in California you might get life in prison, and that this could be seen as violating the equal protection clause of the constitution.

Most of the difference in sentencing can be attributed to different juries in different states have different opinions of what constitutes an appropriate punishment for a given offense. That means it will be near impossible to achieve the liberal goal of equal sentences for people who commit the similar crimes.

So any way, the liberals felt that in order to create a more equal system the Federal government should cap the maximum sentences so that juries in harsher districts would have to pass out lighter sentences like the softer jurisdictions do. Ashcroft has taken the opposite approach and has tried to create higher minimum sentences thus forcing the soft districts to hand out the tougher sentences which the harder districts prefer.

This thinking has now spread out from just capital cases and is now moving into many other sorts of crimes that the Feds prosecute.


We can agree on one thing here, that an increase in judicial discretion is indeed a step towards the rights of states. It makes sense that each state has its own set of statute's, and that all must confrom to federal law. The US constitution guarantee's for every state a republican form of government, and they are indeed entitled to it.

Getting down to the specific business at hand it's easy to see how your position is wrong. While a hardliner might be attracted the "tough on crime" rhetoric, Ashcroft is doing more than just that. He's requiring federal prosecuter's to always seek the maximum punishment, to increase the workload. This either means that the justice department can hire more lawyer (raising your taxes) to accomodate the influx of work or they can simply do worse work with what they have. Pick your poison. Add on to that all the additional judges and court personell you're going to need to do the prosecutions. I hope you like your bureaucracy THICK.

This legislation would also be unfair to tax payers because it deprives the state of money that would have been obtained as a result of settlements. Less money coming in, more money coming out, lawyers too overworked to give adequete representation to their cases. Republican or Democrat, it is basically agreed that it's better to keep litigation reserved for the most important of matters.

flipside is offline flipside
Chieftain
for Sean Marcelo
Jun 2003
time: 05:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 07:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
If Ashcroft wants to destroy lives by the million, it's not my problem. I'm Canadian.

Hi. I'm Northern Irish.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 08:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:

If Ashcroft wants to destroy lives by the million,




So what if Ashcroft starts picking on Canadians?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 09:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm not one to gloat... but when are people, even moderate conservatives, going to realize these Bushies are on the radical right? These people (Bushies) don't respect the legitimacy of our current political system. They are ideologues trying to revolutionize this country. Bush's economic policy is a perfect example. And now, Ashcroft is dancing dangerously close to overstepping his bounds.

sigh... just over a year left until we can vote these ****ers out...

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 09:15 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Sava
radical right?


That's an oxymoron. Radical is by definition, left. Reactionary is the term for the extreme right.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 09:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, you could consider Fascists to be radical right.

Promethus is offline Promethus
Settler
Battle Creek, Michigan
Jan 2002
time: 00:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 10:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Imran

Is there not a Federal law that says that if you don't get a speeedy trial they have to let you go?

If they only bring 5% to trial now and they go for 100% it is possible that a defendant could spend more time in jail waiting for trial than the max sentense they would get if convicted.

And what if they are found not gulity and have spent 10 or more years in jail awaiting trial, do they have any way of receiving compensation?

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:31
  Old Post 01-10-2003 10:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

"Speedy" trial is subjective.

quote:
The US constitution guarantee's for every state a republican form of government, and they are indeed entitled to it.


How does federalising state "crimes" and non-crimes guarantee a republican form of government?

Oerdin -
quote:
this could be seen as violating the equal protection clause of the constitution.


Equal "protection", not equal sentences. This was to "protect" our rights equally, not make sure you pay the same fine for speeding as me. There are only a handful of crimes listed in the Constitution for which Congress has jurisdiction when the crime is committed within a state's jurisdiction - treason and counterfeiting are all I can remember along with piracy and violating tariff or tax laws. But anyone can see Congress has federalised thousands, if not millions of state laws and continues to expand it's control in violation of constitutional limits. So, I can only ask for people who care about the Constitution to use a bit of logic - why did the Framers list only a few crimes if the Framers really meant to give Congress the power to federalise a multitude of laws within the states?

Of course, the way some people define "interstate commerce", just about everything falls under federal jurisdiction.

  < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0519 seconds (89.72% PHP - 10.28% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net