30-09-2003 20:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by adi321 you messed up, is what you did....

That's also a pretty accurate description. Though I certainly did not hack anything.
Btw, what's your nick on the Paradox forum? I don't remember ever seeing adi321.

	30-09-2003 20:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld That would make things a bit different, ofcourse, but I was under the impression people where just given access to the beta forum through a goof up in the servers. What would he need a password for?

Good question!

	30-09-2003 20:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld That would make things a bit different, ofcourse, but I was under the impression people where just given access to the beta forum through a goof up in the servers. What would he need a password for?

to download the installer for example...

	30-09-2003 20:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Generalisimo to download the installer for example...

You mean a beta version Patric talked about earlier in this thread? I have not seen that, and I have certainly not tried to download it.

	30-09-2003 20:50									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Maniac You mean a beta version Patric talked about earlier in this thread? I have not seen that, and I have certainly not tried to download it.

i do not know if you did that or not, but some people did that and are banned too.

	30-09-2003 20:58									#36
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Maniac never tried to download the installer afaik. He DID download the design document and posted about doing it.


Patric

	30-09-2003 21:44									#37
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Was it clearly posted that he wasn't supposed to download the file in question or be visiting the forum in question? I mean on these internet forums it's pretty standard that if you have access to a forum and someone posts something for download then you can download it. If someone doesn't want a file to be downloaded then it is his responsability to say so or to not post it. Isn't it?

You guys screwed up and gave the public access to files so the public went ahead and accessed them. Now, you want to claim they "stole" from you? Sorry, but the one who screwed up was Paradox and not the users who just did exactly what every user always does.

	30-09-2003 21:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Was it clearly posted that he wasn't supposed to download the file in question or be visiting the forum in question? I mean on these internet forums it's pretty standard that if you have access to a forum and someone posts something for download then you can download it. If someone doesn't want a file to be downloaded then it is his responsability to say so or to not post it. Isn't it? You guys screwed up and gave the public access to files so the public went ahead and accessed them. Now, you want to claim they "stole" from you? Sorry, but the one who screwed up was Paradox and not the users who just did exactly what every user always does.

it IS clear that only people with NDA can access those files.

	30-09-2003 21:52									#39
	Suffering from ads?

Hey, I almost never go to the Paradox forums so that's why I asked the question. Though I still think that in a public forum the owner is the one who is responsible for protecting files. If he screws that up then he is the one to blame.

	01-10-2003 01:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld You don't want to get me started on "intellectual property" laws, downloading files will never be comparible to theft in my opinion. But even so, this isn't as extreme as robbing someone's house, or a bank, it's just some beta stuff for a computer game.

By robbing a bank or someones house you'd be looking at jail time. Punishment comparable to transgression...

	01-10-2003 07:43									#41
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If you can't manage security for your own site and want to blame fans of your products for their own interest, tough.

Geez, banning people for doing this is the quickest way to get the stuff on Kazaa. On the internet, if you lose security over your information, you lose all the power.

I thought these games were supposed to develop diplomacy skills.

	01-10-2003 15:13									#42
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Agathon If you can't manage security for your own site and want to blame fans of your products for their own interest, tough. Geez, banning people for doing this is the quickest way to get the stuff on Kazaa. On the internet, if you lose security over your information, you lose all the power. I thought these games were supposed to develop diplomacy skills.

Do you really think that any action by the publisher will stop the eventual availability on Kazaa? No offense but you must be pretty naive in that case.

There is nothing we can do to stop that apart from making the game online only with random parts exchanged from a central server every time you play the game. That is totally out of the question.


Patric

	01-10-2003 18:41									#43
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I think banning Maniac is completely pointless. First, if something is available for download, it is understood that you have the right to download it. It's not as if he was pirating anything; he saw that he could download it from a legitimate source and did so, even if he may have had some idea that it was only downloadable because of a bug. Second, he has apologized and clearly intends no harm. Might it be possible to only ban him from the victoria forum but let him have access to the other forums?

	01-10-2003 18:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 I think banning Maniac is completely pointless. First, if something is available for download, it is understood that you have the right to download it. It's not as if he was pirating anything; he saw that he could download it from a legitimate source and did so, even if he may have had some idea that it was only downloadable because of a bug. Second, he has apologized and clearly intends no harm. Might it be possible to only ban him from the victoria forum but let him have access to the other forums?

1. He obivously knew that what he was doing was wrong (deducted from his post right before being banned).
2. If he wants to discuss this he should do it with me or someone else at Paradox (he has not tried to contact me).


Patric

	01-10-2003 22:28									#45
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Hi Patric,

quote: (he has not tried to contact me)

I just wanted to notify you I've just sent a PM to you on Apolyton.

	01-10-2003 23:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Patric B Do you really think that any action by the publisher will stop the eventual availability on Kazaa? No offense but you must be pretty naive in that case.

It will lower the likelhood of it, or at least won't garner any ill will.

You are basically punishing someone for loving your games. That seems a strange strategy to me. After all it really has worked for the RIAA.

	02-10-2003 01:26									#47
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Question to paradox: Is this in your best interests? What do you have to gain by keeping Maniac banned? Obviously you are losing one fan and customer and may anger others. What would you lose if you unban him?

	02-10-2003 01:59									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

From the Victoria forum:

quote: b) Those that read through the forum to find the ftp information to find out how to get the beta, configured their ftp-clients to access our ftp, and started downloading the actual game got punished. If they do this immediately after getting in, then thats not a customer I'd want.

Clearly Maniac did not do any of these things. Instead, he tried to download a document which to my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) was open to anyone who had been given access to the beta forum and thus is no different from looking around at threads about the beta, for which people were NOT punished. I agree that anyone who tried to download the beta itself should be banned, but Maniac did not do that.

	02-10-2003 13:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hi Patric, I just wanted to notify you I've just sent a PM to you on Apolyton.

PM back!


Patric

	02-10-2003 15:18									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Patric B 1. He obivously knew that what he was doing was wrong (deducted from his post right before being banned). 2. If he wants to discuss this he should do it with me or someone else at Paradox (he has not tried to contact me).

Sounds reasonable.

Maniac: E-mail the man.

BTW Since Maniac seems repentent enough perhaphes banning him for a set period of time and not perma-banning him might be in order? Make him do his time but let him come back after he's punished.

	02-10-2003 17:54									#51
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quote: PM back!

I think I'm allowed to say I'm no longer banned on the Paradox forum.

Osweld, Agathon, civman2000 and Oerdin, though of course Paradox was fully right to ban me, I would like to thank you for your support in this thread.

	02-10-2003 18:18									#52
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!

	02-10-2003 18:35									#53
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I'm banned at Paradox myself

	02-10-2003 23:01									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm still going to by HOI as soon as it comes out for mac, though.

	03-10-2003 03:23									#55
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Glad to see you are no longer banned.

I might just stop by the EU2 forums sometime myself.

	03-10-2003 23:04									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'm banned at Paradox myself

Not surprising.

	04-10-2003 01:18									#57
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I have just read this thread, and I have to say, that I think that Paradox acted a little too fast on this one. Now I'm not a member of the Paradox forums, and I know nothing about the community there. But I think that Maniac could not have been to blame, unless there was a huge headline in every thread in the Beta forum clearly stating that any download here is illegal unless you are an approved beta tester.

If it were possible to access the file, then how can it be theft to download it, unless it was clearly stated that this was illegal.

And accusing him of hacking the pass is just downright ridiculous

Asmodean

	04-10-2003 01:46									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean I have just read this thread, and I have to say, that I think that Paradox acted a little too fast on this one. Now I'm not a member of the Paradox forums, and I know nothing about the community there. But I think that Maniac could not have been to blame, unless there was a huge headline in every thread in the Beta forum clearly stating that any download here is illegal unless you are an approved beta tester. If it were possible to access the file, then how can it be theft to download it, unless it was clearly stated that this was illegal. And accusing him of hacking the pass is just downright ridiculous Asmodean

Its pretty dang obvious. There's even a thread rather promenently featured on the beta forum currently entitled "remember the NDA". If Maniac was basicly a complete newbie to the forums and assumed that the beta forum must be part of an open beta that would be one thing, but Maniac knew he was taking advantage of the situation. Those who tried downloading the actual beta install, had to login using an FTP client and the right user name and password that could only be found on the beta forum. I believe the initial assumption in this thread was that Maniac was one of the individuals who tried to do this, and this is where the statement about passwords came. (I'm an actual closed Victoria beta tester so I know what I'm talking about.)

	04-10-2003 02:07									#59
	Remove this text

Please rest this case lest the wrath of the Gods Paradox descends upon me again. I have been unbanned, so everything should be fine.

	04-10-2003 02:38									#60
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I don't think anyone is that mad at Paradox.

Hell, as long as they keep publishing games, I'll buy them.

I'm soooo jealous that you got to see Victoria - it looks really great.