01-10-2003 02:24									#1
	War Strategy: Let them turtle!!! Put an end to popups!

GCA are idiots if they decide to turtle. I'll tell you why:

Like I mentioned in the GA thread, the more cities they raze, the more chances that they are planning a last stand move in one of their big cities (or two). So, we are afraid that we'll be facing the entire GCA army in two cities right?

WRONG!

Despotism allows support for 4 units per city. Let's say GCA clings to 2 cities. That's 8 units. Anything more than that eats up on their economy. Without cities, practically their entire upkeep will be in their army which is substantial. So, what are they going to do? Go into Anarchy to eliminate the unit costs.

Oh but guess what?

Since they don't have Monarchy or Republic, they WON'T be able to go into Anarchy because the game only allows it when you have 2 or more government types discovered. So, they are trully, madly, deeply, screwed up if they try the turtling "last stand" tactic. Why? Because we can simply wait until their army withers away.

They'll realize this so they'll probably attack us one they see that they will get nothing buy turtling other than an even easier victory for us.

	01-10-2003 02:30									#2
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They have about 25-30 GPT right now. If they shut off science, that's 160 + 25 per turn.

Even with 4 or 5 or 6 cities left they can hold out their main army for quite a while.

Their units being disbanded isn't something I'd expect would happen except maybe in the very final days of the war.

	01-10-2003 02:31									#3
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Agreed; as I stated in another thread, even if they COULD jump into anarchy, turtling effectively damns you to slow death by technological stagnation. We can leave our army watching their border and fill in the remaining land well enough.

	01-10-2003 02:43									#4
	Put an end to popups!

When life gives you turtles - make turtle soup!

If they want to bottle themselves up, I say let them. The biggest concern then will be a desperate alliance with one of the two from the other continent. That may keep them in the tech race for a bit, but I cannot see it doing anything for them militarily over the short or medium term. And I'm not sure GWT or CGN will see any benefit to such an alliance.

Now - if GWT and CGN wake up - and make up - then we might have real problems.

But I am sure the canny skills of Togas and crew will keep the pot stirring on the other continent.

	01-10-2003 03:15									#5
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Beta raises a very good point (and I know where it came from ). We need to keep GCA isolated politically, since only isolated turtles do no harm to us. Turtles getting techs and strategic resources from someone else (who is just freaking happy to make it more difficult for us to finish GCA off, especially if spending nothing of real value) are naughty turtles we want to avoid.

	01-10-2003 03:26									#6
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If GCA turtles, the nutcracker we need is a tall stack of catapults.

Sieges are best responded to with.... (gasp!)...



siege weaponry!

	01-10-2003 04:17									#7
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The only ppl they can get resources from is CFC. I dont this is is going to happen any time soon...

	01-10-2003 05:39									#8
	Remove this text

I don't think they will turtle that much myself, but time will tell.

I suspect they will just withdraw from both fronts and try to collect their scattered army in the middle, slashing and burning as they go.

Honestly though, I think at this point they have resigned themselves to defeat and just want to take us with them if its possible, so they'll do whatever they can that will cause us the most long term damage with the least gain.

	01-10-2003 06:18									#9
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Like.... abandoning cities and razing the road behind them?

Sounds familiar already

	01-10-2003 06:47									#10
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Militarily speaking, it's probably wise to "let them turtle". However, since we have a bunch of units sitting around I anyway, I think it would be best to just kill them as quickly as possible. Remember that we have other plans to set in motion, including gearing up our economy to compete with those of the other continent. This involves settling GCA's lands, and, if we decide not to kill CFC immediately, trimming our military spending down to reasonable levels.

Let's get rid of GCA and move on to nobler things.


Dominae

	01-10-2003 06:49									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Beta raises a very good point (and I know where it came from ). We need to keep GCA isolated politically, since only isolated turtles do no harm to us. Turtles getting techs and strategic resources from someone else (who is just freaking happy to make it more difficult for us to finish GCA off, especially if spending nothing of real value) are naughty turtles we want to avoid.

Those naughty turtles are just short sighted, and will eventually realise they should of backed a winner instead.

Thus why I suggested a hidden aliance with WebRing.
We limit our trade with CGN if they limit their trade with CFC & GCA.

	01-10-2003 19:08									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If they turtle, we will pillage their land and the people will starve. When we kill some of their units they wont be able to build new ones because of the low production.

	01-10-2003 22:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Thus why I suggested a hidden aliance with WebRing. We limit our trade with CGN if they limit their trade with CFC & GCA.

Given that GWT has the stronger military, will have Ansar Warriors soon, and we believe is probably the superior tacticians compared to CGN, this could be a recipe for losing the game.

I'd suggest we should be very careful about taking sides in the CGN-GWT conflict. We should certainly make it appear to each of them that we favor them over their opponent, but I'm of the opinion that we should remain as balanced as possible in reality until we are sure that the impact we have on their balance does not harm our interests.

	02-10-2003 05:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Given that GWT has the stronger military, will have Ansar Warriors soon, and we believe is probably the superior tacticians compared to CGN, this could be a recipe for losing the game. I'd suggest we should be very careful about taking sides in the CGN-GWT conflict. We should certainly make it appear to each of them that we favor them over their opponent, but I'm of the opinion that we should remain as balanced as possible in reality until we are sure that the impact we have on their balance does not harm our interests.

I think playing the middle guy, and ensuring the teams remain balanced is a perfect strategy against AI. But with human players, IMO, it is completely different.

It's usually... "You're either with me or against me"
"And certainly if you start trading with my enemy...you are against me"

We could potentially end up with both teams being pissed at us instead of just seeing us as nuetral.


Would we be happy if GWT gifted Fuedalism to GCA ?
(As a tech now for tech later deal)
Just write it off as them being being nuetral ?

If we decide to tackle CFC, and GWT gifts Chivalry to them...Again, would we see it as being Nuetral ?

I doubt it.

I would rather get an early aliance down now. Embargo both our enemies, and each rule our continents.


Although it always sounds easier than it really is
I admit that.

	02-10-2003 07:12									#15
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I suppose I'm partially just questioning the rush to ally with German Webring Team as opposed to assessing more of the situation before feeling forced to make a decision on picking an ally.

I'm also of the opinion that it's possible to seem as though we're "on the side" of each of them. We wouldn't go overly out of our way to help them, but there are a few things we can do to actually help without it being apparent to the opponent.

For instance, it was suggested by BFM (I believe) that we could collect from CGN their unit stats and compare them to ours and each of them to the "average" and "weakness" of GWT, then talk to CGN about how strong/weak this must make GWT.... conceivably, we could do the same with GWT. Neither need necessarily know that we have obtained each of their ordes of battle and used it to merely share with the other some very basic info about it...

They'd probably be unwilling to do that, but it's possible.

It's also possible to use CFC (as Master Zen suggested) as a go-between to the civs. We can play each side that we are "on their side" while routing certain techs through CFC that one side probably wouldn't want us trading with the other.

It's also true that they may not REMAIN at war. If they instead establish something of a cold war, there's nothing wrong with us trading with both of them while playing up that we're really on "their side" by sharing intelligence information and any other stuff like that we can get our hands on.

	02-10-2003 08:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I suppose I'm partially just questioning the rush to ally with German Webring Team as opposed to assessing more of the situation before feeling forced to make a decision on picking an ally.

Most definately this should be debated..I agree
We should be considering what happens after GCA.
We must focus on our needs to win the war, but also plan ahead and what shall we do after we win or even lose.

As per Dom in the other thread... if we are going after CFC after GCA, then we need to build military. If we are not, then some of the GA needs to remain on infastructure.

I like the Germans because their UU cant touch us
CGN's UU could.
CFC will have Riders which are a definate concern.
CGN has better land & a better start.
The Germans are Religeous...that aint much
CGN is Scientific & Industrious.
CFC is Militaristic & Industrious.
The Germans would of "wasted" their GA on a war.
Both CFC & CGN will have GA's at a time not ideal to us.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos It's also true that they may not REMAIN at war. If they instead establish something of a cold war, there's nothing wrong with us trading with both of them while playing up that we're really on "their side" by sharing intelligence information and any other stuff like that we can get our hands on.

Or worse could happen.
In PTWDG#1 RP & GS were bitter rivals, and are now best allies.
If we dominate our continent, have neither of them as an ally, CGN & GWT could realise that their better option is to align against us.

	02-10-2003 17:53									#17
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Interesting debate. I lean towards Arnelos' view of the strategized and favoured neutrality, as aopposed to picking one side. That being said, H_E, you make some very good points.

I just don't see where there is any need to pick sides now. There is no downside I can see from waiting and seeing how things develop. Other than the off-chance that the two of them realize where we stand, put aside their differences for the moment, and ally against us, either by themselves or through GCA.

	04-10-2003 10:27									#18
	Remove this text

Good turtle and pokes alwyas wins. Just an universal rule I noticed in every single MP games.