01-10-2003 17:17									#1
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Would this combination worry anyone?

A dictator of a country with a lot of fundamentalist islamic activity, who overthrew a democratically elected government and who has access to nuclear weapons.

So, are the americans happy with their Pakistani 'ally' Mussaraf?

Indeed are they as pleased with him as the CIA was with Bin Laden in Afghanistan in the 1980's ?

If he plays to domestic opinon then the US (and India, and the wider world) has a problem - if he cracks down hard on islamists in his own country then it's possible he could go the way of the Shah in 1979.

	01-10-2003 17:21									#2
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no more than a dictator in an atheist country with womd scares me.

or a dictator in a jewish country, or christian country.

dictators and wmd? bad news.

not the faith.

	01-10-2003 17:29									#3
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A nice, reasoned reply.

Let's see if others can be as impartial.

	01-10-2003 17:49									#4
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I think that dictatorships can't be good in any condition, but if I had to choose, an atheist dictator ruling a fundamentalist country and using its influence to keep the crazy folks at bay could be the only way to accept such a thing; Qaddafi is a psycho but other "democratic" countries seem to be hostages of stronger, subversive movements which are political ideologies, wiew of the role of religion in the state, ethnic differences and so on.. Pakistan would become a hell on earth for example, for the role of local spiritual guides and its nuclear strenght

	01-10-2003 17:58									#5
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somehow, that doesn't make me feel any better about kim jong il.

ostensibly atheist, he thrives on a cult of personality that enjoys the same fervor that some of those islamic and christian fundamentlists have.

	01-10-2003 18:06									#6
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The real problem is that there's a huge different between the role of religion in North Korea and in every single muslim country in the world- not saying that muslim countries are crazy of course, but muslim countries are somehow backed by characters with a strong charisma that twist the teachings of islam to their purposes, while such a thing wouldn't happen in christian countries for examples, just for the reason that there are NO fundamentalist christian countries anymore. We can expect a change in global politics when every single muslim fundamentalist dictatorship will be put down- and don't ever forget that dictatorships all over the world often cooperate against a common enemy (Korea and Iran seem a damn good example)

	01-10-2003 18:10									#7
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Young Kim is only an athiest about 'other gods'.......

	01-10-2003 18:23									#8
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kim jong il, unfortunately, has brainwashed his followers so much so that they think he is the most charismatic god on earth. why else would they name something that looks no different from a poinsetta a "kimjongillia"?

charisma is like beauty. it's in the eye of its victims. pat robertson, jerry falwell--they have rather large followings because they are charismatic to their groups; the only reason why they don't have a fundamentalist country of their own is that there still are enough sane americans to fight them at every turn.

the other reason that there are no fundamentalist christian countries is that christian countries all tend to be completely and utterly westernized--meaning secularism has become the dominant philosophy, not the religion itself.

had the modern world begun in the islamic states, i'm willing to bet you'd have many super-secular muslim nations and a fundamentalist, backward christian dictatorship in many places of the world.

	01-10-2003 19:42									#9
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Would bother me no more than any other type of dictator. I'm more bothered about dictators than I am about democracies, but in that latter respect, I'd be no more bothered if a Muslim democracy ( ) were to have nukes etc.

	01-10-2003 19:45									#10
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quote: 'd be no more bothered if a Muslim democracy were to have nukes etc.

Yes you would. If Pakistan had the pre-Musharraf government, you'd be very scared right now.

	01-10-2003 19:45									#11
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I'd be more bothered if Pakistan were democracy right now, actually,

	01-10-2003 19:50									#12
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well of course we'd be more worried if they had the pre-musharaff gov't.

benazir bhutto (sp?) and her ilk were all übercorrupt.

then again, so are many other 'democracies'...

good thing most of those don't have nukes.

	01-10-2003 19:50									#13
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quote: Yes you would. If Pakistan had the pre-Musharraf government, you'd be very scared right now.

No I wouldn't, I'd be a shadow on the wall!

Che:

	01-10-2003 19:57									#14
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Imran & chegitz,

What about my parallel between Musharraf and the Shah?

	01-10-2003 19:58									#15
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quote: well of course we'd be more worried if they had the pre-musharaff gov't. benazir bhutto (sp?) and her ilk were all übercorrupt.

Bhutto was already out of government at the time. She had been exiled for corruption. The current government at the time Musharraf took power was the Sharif government, which REALLY looked like it was going to go more Islamist. He had been making gestures to them when Musharraf took over and basically took power from the hands of the Islamists.

Seriously, without the coup, I wouldn't have suprised to see a Iran type government pop up in Pakistan after 9/11... though in this case they'd take it by election.

	01-10-2003 20:13									#16
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I think Iran and North Korea have been a pain in the ass for too much, if Bush will win the elections in 2004 we'll see at least one of them down- hopefully Iran first, as it's the main reason for all the mess in Israel

	01-10-2003 20:17									#17
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oh, those crazy pakis.

i'm actually uncomfortable with anybody in a hot zone with nukes, democracy or not.

that means india, israel, and pakistan--i'm quite scared of them. north korea, japan, taiwan, and skorea too, if any of them had them.

	01-10-2003 20:43									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit I think Iran and North Korea have been a pain in the ass for too much, if Bush will win the elections in 2004 we'll see at least one of them down- hopefully Iran first, as it's the main reason for all the mess in Israel

You don't have enough money or troops to take on Iran & North Korea.

You can barely manage Iraq & Afghanistan (the latter with lots of help)

	01-10-2003 20:45									#19
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nobody in the region is going to support a preemptive attack on nkorea.

not only would the us be going it alone, they'd be doing it without skorea, japan, china, and russia.

	01-10-2003 20:58									#20
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quote: So, are the americans happy with their Pakistani 'ally' Mussaraf?

Happy or not, it makes no difference. Things are as they are. We are trying to make the best out of a bad situation.

	01-10-2003 21:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by el freako You don't have enough money or troops to take on Iran & North Korea. You can barely manage Iraq & Afghanistan (the latter with lots of help)

Fran is Italian.

	01-10-2003 21:02									#22
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Imran & chegitz, What about my parallel between Musharraf and the Shah?

A very great worry.

	01-10-2003 21:03									#23
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Serves me right for not bothering to look at the flag

	01-10-2003 21:05									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Happy or not, it makes no difference. Things are as they are. We are trying to make the best out of a bad situation.

Yup. You play the hand you're dealt.

	01-10-2003 23:27									#25
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quote: Serves me right for not bothering to look at the flag

But of course you meant Milano, Ohio

	02-10-2003 00:26									#26
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quote: What about my parallel between Musharraf and the Shah?

Not as much. After all there is a history in Pakistan of military rule, and the military have been much more secular than the parliament (though the Prime Ministers have been fairly secular as well, for the most part).

Musharraf may not be loved by some of the fundy's, but he doesn't have his black clad secret police pulling mullahs and dissidents out of their houses and having them shot.

	02-10-2003 00:32									#27
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How about we (and this is a strange concept), dont have a war? .

Give it a go, believe it or not, it actually works! . Pacifism is like "I can't believe its not butter".

	02-10-2003 00:35									#28
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I don't see what the problem is. Sure he's a dictator and all that, but Musharraf strikes me as a reasonable man without the grand ambitions of someone like Saddam Hussein. Pakistan is a desperately unstable country and periodically lapses into tyranny because of it. He's about the best we could hope for.

	02-10-2003 00:39									#29
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It actually worries me slightly less than an atheist dictatorship with nukes.

No matter how they corrupt or twist the faith (and no matter what you think of Islam, they would have to corrupt it, because Islam does not to my knowledge express the ideal "obey the crazy autocrat who came to power by killing the previous rulers"), the people in such a country would still have the slight possibility of divided loyalties, because in such a dictatorship the Glorious Leader is inescapably supposed to be ruling at the behest of a greater power, whose regulations are clearly spelled out and can only be twisted so far.

An atheist dictator, by contrast, has complete control over his/her ideology, and doesn't have to depend on distortions of somebody else's ideas to stay in legitimate power. Much more flexible and hence slightly more likely to use their powers as they wish. Hitler didn't have to worry that the SS would receive visions proclaiming him as the Great Satan...

	02-10-2003 00:57									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't see what the problem is. Sure he's a dictator and all that, but Musharraf strikes me as a reasonable man without the grand ambitions of someone like Saddam Hussein. Pakistan is a desperately unstable country and periodically lapses into tyranny because of it. He's about the best we could hope for.

This is true.