02-10-2003 04:04									#1
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"Still, Democrats were planning for the worst: The state party and a national Democratic group called Democrats for America's Future was holding a conference call Wednesday to announce a $100,000 fund-raising campaign to help pay for potential post-election legal challenges."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...avis_recall_975
I bet none of you saw that comming, yeah right.

	02-10-2003 04:56									#2
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The Democratic party is immoral. Why anyone would belong to a party that prides itself in being pro-abortion is beyone me. They thrive by stirring up minorities and trying to convince women that they would be beter off if they were men. They are the party of scum and I have no use for the entire orginization. Too bad they have duped so many decent people into thinking that they really care about them.

	02-10-2003 04:57									#3
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Lincoln, that was a REALLY bad troll

	02-10-2003 04:59									#4
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Well I am trying to think of some of their good points. Give me a minute...

	02-10-2003 05:01									#5
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Oh yeah, I think they supported the don't-call list. OK, I repent.

	02-10-2003 05:02									#6
	Got spare money?

Hell... The title alone is a great troll... and then Lincoln just went for the throat.

How come I don't think this thread will last very long

	02-10-2003 05:05									#7
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It's Bush's fault.

	02-10-2003 05:09									#8
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And now the mods get in on it .

	02-10-2003 05:24									#9
	Tired of ads?

Says something about a thread when two moderators have posted in it at only four replies.

	02-10-2003 05:28									#10
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Experience can sometimes be the best teacher...

	02-10-2003 05:28									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And then the rest of us talk about how the mods entered this thread so early.

	02-10-2003 05:33									#12
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The information provided isn't a troll... How it was presented... the title....and the intitial response is what made it a bad troll... and subject to "attention"

	02-10-2003 05:40									#13
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When you construct a troll...Try not to be so blatant Subtly pays off in the long run

	02-10-2003 05:41									#14
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Well, I think I'll throw my two cents in

What is immoral is the Republican belief that social programs, health programs, and education programs should be cut in favor of the wealthy. I don't understand how someone can really believe that a poor person and a wealthy person should pay a flat tax when such necessities to life as food and clothing take up such a greater percentage of a poor person's income than a rich persons.

Just shooting right back. I think it was called for.

	02-10-2003 05:44									#15
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Flat tax... in the US...

I'll remember that when I pay a third of my income to taxes and some poor people pay none or less than 10%

	02-10-2003 06:20									#16
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quote: What is immoral is the Republican belief that social programs, health programs, and education programs should be cut in favor of the wealthy. I don't understand how someone can really believe that a poor person and a wealthy person should pay a flat tax when such necessities to life as food and clothing take up such a greater percentage of a poor person's income than a rich persons.

Obviously because the wealthy people shouldn't be responsible for all the poor people who won't go get a job, because they are either too lazy or too proud to flip burgers. Wealthy people shouldn't be responsible for other people's misfortune, either.

	02-10-2003 06:26									#17
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Another common cheap pun is "Dim-ocrat"

	02-10-2003 07:42									#18
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Obviously because the wealthy people shouldn't be responsible for all the poor people who won't go get a job, because they are either too lazy or too proud to flip burgers. Wealthy people shouldn't be responsible for other people's misfortune, either.

You know, its funny, considering since Bush's tax cuts, we've lost more jobs than under both Clinton and Bush, both of whom raised taxes.

Raise taxes - Jobs Increase
Cut taxes - Jobs Decrease

People can't get jobs if there aren't any.

	02-10-2003 07:48									#19
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Another common cheap pun is "Dim-ocrat"

Well there's "Repugnantcan".

Or noting that you can't spell "conservatives" w/o spelling "cons".

	02-10-2003 07:50									#20
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Yes, Bush's tax cuts are the entire reason for our economy. Nothing else contributed to it at all.


And by the way, why is it the government's responsibility to make sure everyone has employment, even if they have to "create" them?

	02-10-2003 08:11									#21
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Here, let me explain it to you socially.

John Doe is born into a family that sits well below the poverty line. His father is a works two jobs attempting to pull together enough money to feed his family. His mother is home caring for her other two children.

John Doe goes to public school. Because of the tax cuts, teachers salaries and certain programs are cut, creating lower level of education. Teachers who are willing to accept a small wage (usually those who are not very good) teach John. The afterschool programs he wants to go to are cut, leaving John with nothing to do once the bell rings.

However, John Doe sees where his parents are, and works hard. He avoids the prevalance of drugs, gangs, and other things which could take up his time since he is devoid of any activities afterschool. He does, however, take on a job, working 20 hours a week at minimum wage (plus another 15 hours under the table at below minimum to provide for his family). He takes on a second job when his father loses one due to his company downsizing.

John Doe goes through high school. While a smart and hardworking kid, he is unable to maintain more than a 2.5 GPA because he spent so much time working to help relieve some of the financial burden on his family. Due to this, he is unable to recieve any scholarships. He applies to State schools, but due to severe cuts in public funding, he is only offered 10% of what he needs to go to school.

John Doe decides that he must attend college in order to get a better future. He goes to a community college which, by picking up more hours at his second job, he can afford to go to. However, the community colleges were also hit by funding cuts. The professors have little experience, because all the good professors moved to good schools for more money. Again, John is faced with an education that is sub-par.

John Doe will not be disuaged. However, his mother is diagnosed with a dangerous but treatable disease. His family is without health insurance because of cuts in Medicare, and his father is unable to find work that will provide adequate health insurance. John finds more and more of his hours dedicated to working for a little more than minimum wage. He is still a hard worker, and while his grades are not stellar, he pulls out a 2.6 GPA for two years.

John Doe is accepted into State college. Due to his two years at community school, he is able to recieve funding for half his tuition. His father has found a second job, and while it doesn't pay as well as the one he had before, it does have health insurance. While John Doe still must work 35-40 hours per week to pay for school, he graduates with a degree in Computer Science.

John Doe is now in the workforce. At least, that's where he'd like to be. However, it is almost impossible for him to find a job in this economy. John Doe ends up taking a job that is below his qualifications, as well as below the money he needs. He is still a human as well: somehow between working and school he has found a girlfriend. Long story short, they marry. John must now provide for a family.

Slowly, as you'll see, though John has worked hard to get himself out of poverty, there are few jobs for him. His parents tried to provide for him, but he ended up providing for them. With cuts to welfare, he had no choice but to work as much as he did. With lack of jobs and a good salary, with a family to provide for, he falls right into his parent's situation raising him.

(The above scenario, in regards to his ability to work while attending school, is best case scenario.)

So you go ahead, Ming, and complain that a third of your money is taken. Go ahead David Floyd, and cry out that people are lazy. This has nothing to do with laziness. This is a common story. This, my friends, is real life.

	02-10-2003 08:14									#22
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quote: The above scenario, in regards to his ability to work while attending school, is best case scenario

Do you know a specific person who's gone through this? Because the 'best case' scenario for John Doe is MUCH better based on certain people I've known that had to work 40 hours a week and go to school at the same time, just to survive.

	02-10-2003 08:19									#23
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What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

I'm going for a run...I'll answer when I get back

	02-10-2003 08:20									#24
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Hard work can build yourself in very bad situations.

There's a threshold for how bad it can get, but by the time it does, enough people will be pissed off to 1776 the government (hopefully!).

Good economic management is but one of many factors. Good policies can greatly help, and bad policies can greatly hurt, but to portray them to be the only deciding factor is silly.

	02-10-2003 08:20									#25
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"Obviously because the wealthy people shouldn't be responsible for all the poor people who won't go get a job, because they are either too lazy or too proud to flip burgers. Wealthy people shouldn't be responsible for other people's misfortune, either."




Typical conservative dreck which has no basis in reality... I can't believe that people can think these thoughts without bursting into laughter.

	02-10-2003 08:38									#26
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I wonder if the majority of Democrats like Pepsi, and the majority of Republicans go for Coca-Cola . . .?

	02-10-2003 08:55									#27
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My John Doe story... based on somebody I know.
And many other people I know have similar stories.

John Doe grew up on the West Side of Chicago... in one of the most depressed, drug ridden, areas of the city. Gangs rule the streets and it has one of the highest murder rates in the city. He was raised by his single mom... and hasn't ever met his father.

He went to a terrible Chicago public school. Instead of joining the gang, selling drugs, and dropping out of high school and probably ending up dead by age 21, he joined a West Side Club called the Off The Street Club. Many kids who want to excape the gangs join. It is a privately funded venture, supported by the Chicago Advertising Community and many other local businesses.

Our John Doe went there after school to get help on his studies... work on computers... play games... particpate in sports... and manages to get good grades inspite of the bad teaching. Gets a scholarship to go to college. Works a job on the side to help give him spending money. Works hard at college. Works summers as an intern at Businesses in Downtown Chicago... Graduates near the head of class... Gets a well paying job with a real future. Just like most of the people that went to the Off Street Club...

Today he is a successful businessman... Married, has two beautiful children. He volunteers a lot of his free time to help kids at his old club....

So The Emperor Fabulous... yeah, I complain about taxes... 1/3 is only income tax... if you throw in all the other taxes I pay, it's more like half my income. It's my right to complain about taxes.

But I still give my time and a part of my salary to charities like the Off The Street Club, because places like that make a difference in peoples lives... If more people did that... there would be more stories like mine than stories likes yours.

	02-10-2003 08:59									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ming My John Doe story... based on somebody I know. And many other people I know have similar stories. John Doe grew up on the West Side of Chicago... in one of the most depressed, drug ridden, areas of the city. Gangs rule the streets and it has one of the highest murder rates in the city. He was raised by his single mom... and hasn't ever met his father. He went to a terrible Chicago public school. Instead of joining the gang, selling drugs, and dropping out of high school and probably ending up dead by age 21, he joined a West Side Club called the Off The Street Club. Many kids who want to excape the gangs join. It is a privately funded venture, supported by the Chicago Advertising Community and many other local businesses. Our John Doe went there after school to get help on his studies... work on computers... play games... particpate in sports... and manages to get good grades inspite of the bad teaching. Gets a scholarship to go to college. Works a job on the side to help give him spending money. Works hard at college. Works summers as an intern at Businesses in Downtown Chicago... Graduates near the head of class... Gets a well paying job with a real future. Just like most of the people that went to the Off Street Club... Today he is a successful businessman... Married, has two beautiful children. He volunteers a lot of his free time to help kids at his old club.... So The Emperor Fabulous... yeah, I complain about taxes... 1/3 is only income tax... if you throw in all the other taxes I pay, it's more like half my income. It's my right to complain about taxes. But I still give my time and a part of my salary to charities like the Off The Street Club, because places like that make a difference in peoples lives... If more people did that... there would be more stories like mine than stories likes yours.

But remember that there are moderate liberals like me who do appreciate local community resources and programs that really do seem to be making a difference.

I just don't believe that communities or states can be left to themselves completely -- the federal government ought to be a part of this to some reasonable extent.

	02-10-2003 09:09									#29
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I admire your story, Ming. I agree completely that if there was less greed, more people would benefit. I also agree that it is your right to complain about your taxes...so long as you respect my right to believe that taxes are necessary as another way to help people in similar positions.

However, I am a realist as well, and I realize that there are many who will not give. You're giving back to the community that gave to you. However, a lot of people never grew up in that environment. They see no need to contribute to their community. Therefore, certain publicly funded measures must be available.

My John Doe also had to provide for his parents, of which he had both. Spending money was a luxury.

	02-10-2003 09:21									#30
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I have no problem with my taxes being spent on the communtiy and to help the disadvantaged. However, I do have a problem with HOW that money is being spent. The current welfair system is a joke... it's a black hole of spending, and doesn't do squat. It doesn't help people get back on their feet, or help them improve their situation. It's amazing that studies show that each dollar spent on welfair is the equilivent of about 10 cents of money that comes from private charities. When businesses and private organization put money against the problem, they get results. The government programs as they are today don't. So I'm pissed that I have to give such a large part of my income to programs that just piss the money away.

The school system is the same way... as pointed out in other threads... the US puts a lot of money into it, and it still sucks. The answer isn't to throw more money after already badly spent money. The answer is to rethink how to spend the money so that it is more effective.

Again... why can privately run charities be so much more effective with less money... Because Government programs are misguided and poorly managed.