02-10-2003 20:33									#1
	The case for increasing our Research rate Remove this text

At the moment, we are researching Invention at 1 beaker per turn (the 40 turn Maximum). We had counted on our having our GA to help the research come along faster, but this isn’t the case. So why increase our research rate?? First off a few facts.

The base beaker cost (when no one else has the tech) is 1056 beakers. We have now had 6 turns at the 1 beaker limit which leaves us with 1050 beakers to complete. If we want to, at this point in time, increase our research to the point that we will get it faster than the 40 turn Max, we will have to have 32 beakers per turn just to get the tech in 39 turns. This is figured with this formula:

code:

BPT = Roundup((TC-N)/(X-N))

Where:
TC is the tech cost
N is the number of turns completed at 1 beaker per turn research
X is the number of turns that we want the tech in 
BPT is the number of beakers needed per turn to complete in X turns

From the above example
BPT = roundup((1056-6)/(39-6)) = roundup(1050/33) = 32 BPT needed to complete the tech in 39 turns

code:

Turns of 1 BPT               6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30
BPT needed to get 39 turns  32  33  34  35  37  38  39  41  42  44  46  48  50  52  55  58  61  65  69  74  80  86  94 103  114

Last edited by E_T on 02-10-2003 at 23:53

	02-10-2003 21:06									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

hmmmn nice analysis, your reasoning is sound, the premise being that the longer it is done the 40 turn way the less of a benefit it becomes to actually research it the real way, unless I'm mistaken.

Research at 10/20 % now won't reduce the overall time taken to research the tech in the grand scheme of things, it will just put the commerce in the research bank now rather than later, kinda like steady research instead of saving up then researching at a deficit.

The important things are will it definatly be done the old fashioned way, how quickly the tech can be researched, how important is it, what speed we are likely to research at when we properly get going. Basically how does the speed we will research it at compare to the 40 turns speed, which as ET says is constantly decreasing.

	02-10-2003 22:03									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

At this point in time, both the 10% and 20% options (30% will leave us with a GPT deficit), won't decrease the time to research the tech, but it will bank away more beakers, so that when we do go full steam with the GA, we will have the capability in completing it before the 40 turn limit.

At this point in time, without knowing when we will get our GA, it's hard to say exactly when the tech will be completed and at what %.

The main thing, is that we are about at a point were we have to keep at the 40 turn limit, no matter what happens. And if we want to have further research capabilities, after our GA is done, we will need markets, courthouses and some libraries.

MoI E_T

	02-10-2003 23:55									#4
	Tired of ads?

Fixed a small problem in the formula and simplified it. I also fixed the chart to the right values.

MoI E_T

	02-10-2003 23:55									#5
	Got spare money?

Actually, keeping the cash in the bank is the more flexible course. Research can be pushed later to put us into a defecit position and eat the accumulated surplus, if that is desired.

We can defecit spend later to put the cash into beakers, but we can never reverse the beakers into cash once directed there.

I mention this because it is conceivable that we may want to complete Invention at 40 turns. If we do that, the gold diverted to science now at 10 or 20% is completely wasted.

The only reason not to keep the cash in the bank would be if there were any chance of losing a city to an enemy.

	03-10-2003 00:00									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

NYE, the thing is, there gets to a point, no matter what amount of deficit spending that we do (during a GA mind you), that we will still won't get the tech in under 40 turns.

I am presenting an option and case for increasing our rate now. Do we really think that we will have to cut our Iron again? If so, we should do it now and not later, when we can't plan for it as well.

[Edit] Also remember, that we can't run at a full 100% science research, as we still have to keep 10% luxuries set up, as long as Bananatopia is over size 6. [/edit]

MoI E_T

	03-10-2003 00:01									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

To go the 40 turns way is to risk losing the tech race and (in the long term if the war lasts a lot of turns) facing superior units. I think that puting the slider at 10% is a prudent choice.

	03-10-2003 00:13									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The basic point is being missed. It does not matter what turn the gold is spent when it is spent on science, it only matter that it be spent. For instance...

as of 130BC, if we had 800 gold in the bank, we could put research at 80%. That would result in a defecit of 71gpt. We would have Invention in 11.

Now, if we kept to 40 turns for Invention, we could bank 1120 gold based on our 32gpt free as of 130BC. Finish Invention in 40, then crank the slider to get the next tech in 10 to 15 turns.

The point is that the gold all still gets spent on research (if it is saved) but we get one tech essentially for free. The net effect is two techs in 50 or 55 turns, only one of which has been paid for. Sounds like a plan to me, so long as cities are safe and secure...

	03-10-2003 00:18									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm of the same opinion as NYE. I'd rather bank the gold and use it for deficit spending later.

Regarding the tech race, we are currently at parity with all other civs except GCA who is behind us. We aren't losing it and we currently have deals to give us both monotheism and chivalry from other civs. I think banking a lot of cash now and then cranking up once Invention is finished is the most prudent course.

	03-10-2003 00:24									#10
	Tired of ads?

Sorry, I didn't know about the two tech plan. This makes sense to me. That would help closing the gap in the second tech

	03-10-2003 00:35									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hmm, before I shoot my mouth off too much (), the deal for chivalry HAS been confirmed right? Or is it still in the works?

	03-10-2003 02:07									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

nye is right, we can wait for a bit before we reach the point ET is talking about.

Plus, if we through in a market place or library down the road, the tech comes along even quicker.

	03-10-2003 03:55									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

nye's reasoning seems sound to me. E_T - do you have any comments on it/problems with it? If you do, please let us know.

	03-10-2003 05:03									#14
	Put an end to popups!

Definitely keep banking it. The only time when it's essential to keep the research flowing is in the early game when you can't run much of a deficit.

	03-10-2003 07:32									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with NYE's proposal as well. It's also generally what I tend to do in the Middle Ages because the techs are very expensive (for the most part) and most players' economies aren't yet strong enough to research such expensive techs quickly anyhow.

	03-10-2003 12:42									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree with nye, too.

A 40-turn research project is good only if carried out in full. At the moment... GCA is no research threat at all. CFC is working on Monotheism, which we have already secured (right?), and is much weaker than us (speaking economically or research-wise). GWT is beelining for Chivalry (another secured tech?) - with mass upgrades to Ansars (needs lots of money, thus slower research) and a war with CGN. CGN must focus on defending against GWT.

I do not really see anyone able to zoom past us in the research, even if we go for 40-turn Invention and then fast gunpowder. In fact, I would expect US to gain a bit of a ground by this.

	03-10-2003 17:11									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If there were no Max number of turns, it wouldn't matter at all when we would spend gold (more accurately: a unit of Trade) on science. We would be able to move the slider as we'd see fit.

But Firaxis has put into place a Max number of turns. It works as follows: if, after 40 turns of researching the same tech, you haven't completed it, you get it for free.

So, if we have 1 beaker per turn for research, we'll have spent 40 units of trade (beakers, gold, whatever) at the time the game decides to get us Invention for free. That's a bonus of 1056 - 40 = 1016 !

If, at turn 39, we would decide to spend more beakers on research, we'd effectively be throwing away part of this bonus.

So, in terms of cost effectiveness, it's best to always spend the minimum of beakers on trade! (but at least 1 per turn to be able to get the bonus).

OTOH, we'd risk falling behind in the tech race. If you want to be the planet's tech leader, effectively, it'll cost you the bonus you missed.

An additional factor is the fact that the cost of a tech is decreased if you know other civs that have it. If you're the tech leader, you're actually reducing the price for the other civs. If you're behind in techs, this is a nice way to get a reduction on the techs you do want to research quickly.
OTOH - the tech leader has more trade options.

The point of all the above: either research at 1 beaker per turn, or at max research rate. The latter preferably on a tech that has its cost reduced already.